Sati/Mindfulness - Remembering what was Done & Said long ago?

Discussion
83

But isn’t it still explicitly listed as a factor? Just because it comes paired, as it usually does, with sati doesn’t mean it isn’t present. I don’t get your logic here.

The third and fourth establishments of mindfulness, at least, are more internally focused. If one is investigating the mind or dhammas like the five hindrances or seven enlightenment factors, isn’t that a more inward directed investigation?

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84

These are not “sitting satipatthana meditation”.

85

Why not? Can’t one sit down and devote a satipatthana meditation session primarily to investigating the mind (with sampajāno)?

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86

This is exaclty what MN118 suggests.

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87

These are sati on body, feelings, mind, or dhammas

88

So is your point that satipatthana meditation can sometimes be more outward focused, e.g. in body mindfulness? Sure, that’s true, but daily life always has an outward observation component whereas IMO that’s not always the case for sitting satipatthana meditation.

Or is it that sati but not sampajāno is involved?

Or are you saying that satipatthana meditation has to always involve all four establishments? I’m not sure that’s implied by the suttas.

Anyway, regardless of that, I think my jhana point is the strongest one. Third jhana has to be even more internal than ordinary sitting satipatthana meditation.

89

I think we are beginning to go around in circles here anyway. I’m happy enough tabout how my recent post (#81) above sets out my case. I think any reasonably complete understanding of sampajāno has to be a synthesis of and take into account SN47.2 and similar suttas, SN47.35, its occurrences in descriptions of sitting meditation (anapanasati or satipatthana) and why it crops up in the third jhana pericope. I’m happy enough with how I described my case in that post and earlier posts.

Agree to disagree and leave it at that?

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90

“Listed as a factor” within the context does not suggest the factor is the only factor for the third jhana. E.g. the text also says " sato ca sampajāno ", which are sato and sampajāno, and also other contents shown in the text for the third jhana.

91

About sitting satipatthana meditation, it is awareness (sampajāna) of both bodily in- and out-breathing and mental activities (such as feelings, mental states), according to SN54.1 on ānāpānasati.

92

Remember that the sutta SN47.2 on sampajāno is awareness of both physical behaviours and their mental activities (such as feelings, mental states) in daily life (including sleeping, keeping silence …), not just “an external situational awareness aspect”.

Also, the third jhana is not sampajāno indicated in SN47.2 and SN47.35.

SN54.1 on ānāpānasati practice links various stages of concentrative meditation and liberation from the āsavas (see SN 54.8).

93

I still don’t really agree, but I’ve already made my points on sampajāno and you’ve set out your case too I think. Anyway, I’m going to leave it at that on the issue.

94

somebody translated some KN parts

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95

That site is a nice-looking work-in-progress to translate the Netti and Patisambhidamagga (with it looks like the greater part of the Netti translated at this point). I like how the Pali and English is interweaved. And it even contains a translation of the passage discussed earlier in the thread:

As said the Blessed One –
Therefore, here you monk, dwell contemplating body in the body – ardent, alert, mindful, having abandoned craving and displeasure in the world.
“Ardent” (ātāpī) is the faculty of effort;
“alert” (sampajāno) is the faculty of wisdom;
“mindful” (satimā) is the faculty of mindfulness;
“having abandoned craving and displeasure in the world” (vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassa) is the faculty of concentration.

Thanks for linking to this!

96

Correct, Ven. Analayo explains this clearly and comprehensively

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