A🔌 browser extension for SuttaCentral

[Pasanna]

@Snowbird

It also has a quick link feature that lets you type in the citation and it takes you right there

Yes to this feature,…

[Snowbird]

@Pasanna

I was just going to do

perfect

@Pasanna

I was thinking to build it on the existing sc framework, which uses MD so that the design aesthetic matches without too much headache.

So if I’m not mistaken MD is being thrown into the Google Charnel Ground. I believe there is some talk of moving away from MD, but that wouldn’t need to impact the plugin.

But I was thinking (from a non-design perspective) that it might make sense for all the plugin mods to have a different look from the native interface so that it was more clear what was what. But maybe that doesn’t matter.

I’ve actually started building a plugin (from a tutorial) that estimates reading time. I’ve almost got it working and will share the repo when I do. Things are a little tricky because this is a SPWA so you have to wait for individual things to load. But I think adding the hamburger and your interface should be really easy to do.

[josephzizys]

Love all of this!

My main use cases are laptop and phone.
I would love to see pali first segmented translation underneath, and if the herichical menu can get you to the sutta of interest quicker then im all for it.

Viz the digital pali reader and my dream feature:

It would be to replicate the search functionality of DPR but for both the pali and the taisho.

Being able to search pairs of stings: i.e a chinese character and a pali string and get suttacentral results for both canons, and even “parralels first” display results would change my life.

(As eould being able to select between KN1 and KN2 (i.e early KN and late)

At the moment there are MANY cases where i have to really waste my time getting from the DPR result to the suttacentral html, especially with AN, and the lack of chinese character search has me oscillating between suttacentrals still not quite right search results and CBETA which involves “translating” from sutta number to folio number all the time.

If i can read quickly on phone or lap, and find quickly in pali or chinese or parralel then I am in heaven.

[Snowbird]

OK, I’ve actually got a working plugin. Woot!

Here’s the repository:

GitHub - thesunshade/SC-Enhancements-Plugin: A browser plugin to add enhancements to the...

The only thing it does is display an estimate of reading time under the H1 of a text (although not the articles for some reason). I used this tutorial: Run scripts on every page  |  Chrome Extensions  |  Chrome for Developers

SC presents some common challenges since it is kind of a single page web app. This means that you have to check to make sure the page and all of the parts have been loaded before you run the script. I’m guessing that this won’t be as big of a problem for adding the hamburger menu, Ven. @Pasanna, so if you wanted to try and implement your menu you might want to start with the tutorial code rather than my finished product.

Next thing for me would be figuring out how to do options for the user to turn the reading time on and off.

I put a little info in the readMe about running it; let me know if I should add more.

[Snowbird]

@josephzizys

My main use cases are laptop and phone.

I’m actually not sure about plugins on phones.

@josephzizys

I would love to see pali first segmented translation underneath,

I think this will be on the top of the list of things to implement. If it is easy enough (or if we have someone smart like Ven. @Pasanna on the case) then it sounds like Bhante might be willing to add it to the real site.

@josephzizys

It would be to replicate the search functionality of DPR but for both the pali and the taisho.

I don’t think a plugin would be able to change the search functionality since that all happens in the database on the server. However I would like to have a record of all of these ideas for improving the actual search on SC. Would you be willing to repost them in a new thread in the feedback category? I have some questions and comments, but I would rather not give them here.

[Snowbird]

@nanavippayutta

linking from suttas to substantial discussions (as inferred, for example, from a high count) about them on D&D.

That feature actually exists! When you are on a sutta, open the menu and go down to this:

So if you are on MN10, for example, it will link to a search for that citation on the forum: Search results for '"mn10 "' - Discuss & Discover

Now, by default it seems to sort by latest post which in this case was near useless. Instead if you change it to relevance, you get much better results.

Is that what you were looking for?

@nanavippayutta

Alternatively: linking from Pali terms to substantial discussions about them on D&D.

Now, this, I think, is something a plugin could do, because I already use a separate plugin to do this very thing for other sites. Please checkout my comment here: Citation and Sutta Name Lookup Tools 🛠 - #28 by Snowbird. Towards the end I show how to use it for the main site search, but you could do the same for the forum. Something like

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/search?q={searchTerms}

I think something could be added in our own plugin to do the same thing. I’ll add it to the list. Thanks!!!

[stu]

@Snowbird

on regular web pages

• right click on citation to go to text on SuttaCentral

• I dream of right click on citation and go to volpage search result

[Snowbird]

Yes, see my answer right above yours. I think you could get that working in just a couple of minutes.

You would need something like

https://suttacentral.net/search?query=volpage:{searchTerms}

Replace {searchTerms} with whatever placeholder the plugin you choose makes use of.

I’ll add that to the list since it will be a useful thing for others too.

[stu]

Wow. Thank you. You must be reading my mind!

[mikenz66]

@Snowbird

@nanavippayutta

linking from suttas to substantial discussions (as inferred, for example, from a high count) about them on D&D.

That feature actually exists! When you are on a sutta, open the menu and go down to this:

I had difficulty finding this but it is at the bottom of the three-dot menu at the top right corner.

[Pasanna]

@Snowbird

@josephzizys

I would love to see pali first segmented translation underneath,

I think this will be on the top of the list of things to implement. If it is easy enough (or if we have someone smart like Ven. @Pasanna on the case) then it sounds like Bhante might be willing to add it to the real site.

UPDATED
Translation appearing above originals - #9 by Pasanna This works (pretty much).
It order Segment ID, root, translation.

[BethL]

Very cool

Added to my mac chrome and it works with the test cases you’re developing.

@Snowbird

I feel like with this plugin it makes sense to provide options since we are targeting so called power users.

Asking because I don’t know…

Are plug-ins largely suited for web-based platforms on computers, in terms of use?

And not so much for mobile devices?

[nanavippayutta]

@Snowbird

So if you are on MN10, for example, it will link to a search for that citation on the forum: Search results for ‘"mn10 "’ - Discuss & Discover

Thank you, I did miss this somehow!

One suggestion for improvement with this feature: the search for "mn10 " finds all mentions of “MN10” followed by a space, but not mentions of “MN 10” (with a space between MN and 10) or “MN10,”, “MN10:”, or “MN10.”, (MN10 followed by a comma, a colon, or a period instead of a space). On D&D, all of these forms are automatically turned into a link to SC.

It looks like a search for "/mn10/" instead of "mn10 " finds all of these links to SC.

Edit: Although this post should probably have gone in a new thread because this is not about the browser plugin.

[Snowbird]

@BethL

Added to my mac chrome and it works with the test cases you’re developing.

Oh wow. Thanks for testing!

@BethL

Are plug-ins largely suited for web-based platforms on computers, in terms of use?

That’s the only experience I have with them. I think FireFox plugins work on mobile devices but I honestly don’t know. Will have to test once it’s actually in an app store.

[Mkoll]

I agree. I wish I could give this constructive criticism more kindly, but the navigation needs to be overhauled. A good UI should be intuitive to use and quick to learn. It should be fast and easy to get where you need to go. You should know where you are and it should be simple to get back to where you came from. Things should feel like they flow smoothly. I’m no expert in UI design, but I’m an experienced user and know when I’m using a good one.

I appreciate all the people and the effort they put in to work on this site. It really is an invaluable resource. In the grand scheme of things, it’s not a big deal and is acceptable the way it is. I’m just being nitpicky because I know it could be better.

[Snowbird]

@Mkoll

but the navigation needs to be overhauled.

OK! So are you interested in proposing an alternate navigation that could be implemented in a plugin? It sounds like Ven. Pasanna’s solution may not meet all of your needs.

It’s fine to critique the current navigation but the reality is that it’s not going to be changed on the main site. First because Bhante S says it isn’t. Second because the devlopment resources don’t exist (aka $$$). And third, believe it or not, not everyone dislikes it. (NB: I’m saying this as just a volunteer. I’m not the one who makes decisions. I’m merely repeating what I have seen said before to the best of my ability. I do happen to also agree with it.)

@Mkoll

You should know where you are and it should be simple to get back to where you came from.

Doesn’t the breadcrumb do that for you sufficiently? E.g SN56.11:

In any case, given the reality that the current native navigation is not going to change, are you willing to work on developing an alternative that can be implemented as a plugin? Because we can have more than one alternative system. And by work on I mean anything from coming up with a detailed spec of what you want all the way up to coding it or at least trying to round up some folks who could?

[Mkoll]

The breadcrumb is a good example of unintuitive and clunky UI design. I don’t know what those Pali words mean by glancing at them (and this will be the case for the vast majority of users). I have to stop and think, trying to translate them with my limited Pali knowledge on the spot to know what I’m navigating back to. I also have to remember how many different subsections the Nikaya is split up into and how many suttas are in each of those subsections. And I don’t remember these things so those Pali words between SN and SN 56.11 might as well be hieroglyphics. The UI is putting too much onus on the user. Even if it used simple numbers, e.g. SN 56.XX-56.YY or SN XX-YY, in place of those Pali words it would be more useful. Or at least put the numbers in parentheses next to the Pali words.

I don’t have an alternative proposition. Just chiming in with some feedback. Like I said, it’s acceptable the way it is. Maybe you could say “Google search website navigation” is my alternative.

[Snowbird]

@Mkoll

Maybe you could say “Google search website navigation” is my alternative.

Yeah, no. I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don’t realize how insulting that is.

If you are going to complain, then you really ought to propose some specific alternative. Because I can assure you that the folks who did the current design put in hundreds of hours and worked through the many, many different edge cases and possibilities. I am sure you aren’t intending to discount this, but until you have a full alternative to propose, then complaining isn’t very helpful.

I’m guessing that responding to all the design decisions that people complain about really isn’t worth the developers time. There is still lots of work to be done.

Now I wasn’t involved with the design, but I think at one point it might have been discussed to translate the breadcrumbs. The problem is that the translations of each of those things are sometimes twice as long or longer than the Pali

For example, this is the current breadcrumb:

Discourses > Linked > SN > Mahāvaggasaṁyutta > Saccasaṁyutta > Dhammacakkappavattanavagga > SN 56.11

If only translated titles were used, then this is what it would be
Discourses > Linked > Linked Discourses Collection > The Group of Linked Discourses on the Path > Linked Discourses on the Truths > The Chapter on Rolling Forth the Wheel of Dhamma > SN 56.11

And because one of the design principles was “mobile first”, having a breadcrumb that long is definitely bad design.

Now, I believe all that translation data might be available through the API and could conceivably used to rewrite the breadcrumb trail. With a plugin it might be possible to implement this despite the fact that’s it is not a good design decision. That’s the great thing about plugins.

Please, I don’t want to discourage constructive discussion. But coming here and saying that the site designers don’t know how to do UI and then not proposing a complete alternative is not helpful.

Even if you don’t have a complete alternative that’s fine. If you can pinpoint specific things (like the breadcrumb) then feel free to explain why an alternative will meet your use case and we can discuss if it is possible. But don’t tell the designers to Google how to do UI. Good grief.

[Mkoll]

With that Google comment, what I was trying to say was that I use Google to search for suttas on the site. For example, I will Google “SN 56.11 suttacentral” and the top results will link directly to the sutta. I wasn’t trying to insult the designers or tell them to Google how to do a UI, and I apologize for my clumsiness if that is how it came across.

My comment was perhaps too unbalanced in the negative and I should have included specifics things I like about the design. That’s a difficulty with online communication: it’s easy, due to time constraint or simple forgetting, to leave things out that would be touched on in a real conversation and these omissions (along with not actually seeing the person’s demeanor and expression or hearing their tone of voice when they’re speaking) can lead people to read intentions into one’s words that weren’t there. So, better late than never:

-Integrating the Pali with the English is really helpful. Having the option to see it side-by-side or line-by-line gives the user choice which is great. I prefer line-by-line but I like that those who prefer side-by-side have that option.
-Keyboard shortcuts are excellent and always welcome. They give those of us who find keyboard navigation more efficient the option. Alt+N and Alt+B are my great friends!
-Highlighting a Pali word and having it come up in the dictionary on the bottom is super helpful. And the dictionary itself is great, especially the word breakdown.
-Color scheme is great. Muted colors, not harsh on the eyes, orangish/beigish to match the Theravada robes.
-The “Discourse” forum software was a good choice. More and more sites use it because it’s probably the best one available.

I could go on. So there’s a lot more that I like about the UI than I dislike and again, what I dislike is still acceptable. So it’s not even a real dislike. If I had to give the overall design a grade, it would be an A. There are only quibbles that prevent it from getting an A+.

---

Regarding the breadcrumb, I question whether including the sub-samyuttas or similar subcategories is helpful. When I (and most people, it seems) refer to suttas I use terms like SN 56.11, AN 4.67, or similar. The site even automatically links to the page when the suttas are referred to in that way (another great UI element by the way). The subcategory is actually irrelevant information to me and hinders navigation.

Using AN 4.67 as an example, I don’t care that it’s in the Pattakammavagga which is in the Dituyapannasaka which is in the Catukkanipata. I don’t know what the other suttas in those subcategories are and those subcategories don’t tell me about what kind of suttas they contain, especially if I don’t know Pali. Perhaps it’s helpful for some people, and if I thought they definitely constituted a majority of the site’s users then I would be on shaky ground for criticizing it. But I think that most users are like me and similarly find that information irrelevant.

There is one solution I can think of right now: Have the default navigation be without those subcategories entirely. So it would just be “AN > AN 4 > AN 4.67.” Clicking “AN” would take me to a list of every sutta in AN. Clicking “AN 4” would take me to a list of every sutta in AN 4. The subcategory navigation could be a toggleable option in the three-dot menu for people who find it useful, but it shouldn’t be the default.

[BethL]

@Mkoll

My comment was perhaps too unbalanced in the negative and I should have included specifics things I like about the design.

From what I can tell, the purpose of this thread isn’t to ask for end user feedback on the SuttaCentral UI, platform decisions, or anything else related to the current instantiation of SuttaCentral. It’s not to ask for a grade.

It’s to ask for feedback on a proposed test plugin.

Perhaps there are other avenues for you to contribute to the SuttaCentral effort. But this thread doesn’t seem like the place.

@Mkoll

But I think that most users are like me and similarly find that information irrelevant.

The Nikaya divisions reflect the careful and thoughtful curation of the pāli suttas. Many of us utilize SuttaCentral as a pāli reading guide. Yes, if they’re like me, we do care about the divisions and we do find value in that breadcrumb feature. This lands as complete disrespect for these reverent texts.

Please consider studying pāli and start a new thread on what you learn.