A Directed and Undirected Knowing

This post refers to SN22.53 , SN22.54 and sutta’s on the undirected and Nibbana

SN22.53 and 54 tell how consciousness can land or establish on rupa, vedana, sanna or sankhara in this very life when there is some element of lust/interest for it. This element of lust causes involvement, engagement with rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara. So it lands upon it. If this element of engagement is gone, consciousness is said to be stable, freed, content and unagigated becuase it does not land anymore upon something. Nibbana is personally attained now.

I believe 'a consciousnesst that establishes on rupa, vedana etc’ is used here in the sense of: the knowing ability of mind becomes directed and lands upon rupa, vedana, sanna or sankhara. Or, in daily language, we become actutely aware of a object of the senses, or are focussed on a certain feeling or some emotion etc. Our mind or knowing is fixed upon that at that moment. Directed. Established upon that.

This seems to be the meaning of established vinnana. A knowing that has established on something specific. Which seems to me as the nature of any sense-vinnana.
So, in the defiled mind (a mind with still elements of engagement) knowing becomes directed, engages, lands upon something specific. We sense something specific and are directed upon that.

If the knowing ability of mind does not establish on rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara because there is no element of involvement , i believe this means that there is an undirected knowing. Undirected, the knowing element or mind does not glue to something. It remains uninvolved.
When knowing does not become directed, it is undirected and free, not involved. It is not any of the sense-vinnana’s. It is not glued to something nor directed upon something. Then mind is stable, content, unagitated.

What provides stability of mind? (which must be the peak of delusion IF mind would really be the most instable phenomena there is)
I believe a knowing that is still undirected. That is the one stable.
A directed knowing cannot see the undirected knowing, the desireless, and uninclined. Still it can be known.

Vinnana in the sutta’s almost always refers to a directed knowing. A situation in which knowing has established upon a rupa, vedana, sankhara or sanna etc. And If the Buddha says that vinnana knows, he means, i believe: sense vinnana knows in this established, involved, directed manner. The attention has estalished onto something. This is due to an element of involvement (MN28)

But there is also knowing that is not like this. Uninvolved, not established, not directed, uninclined. It is said to be freed, stable, content, an unagitated mind or consciousness or knowing.

Is this undirected knowing the unborn, the deathless, the not-desintegrating?
I believe, while we are alive the knowing ability of mind it is not desintegrating. But undirected knowing cannot be understood as a consciousness of something (one of the 6 sense vinnana). It is more subtle.

If we talk about mind freed from greed, hate and ignorance, i believe, we talk about a knowing that is freed, uninvolved, undirected, the stable peaceful element of Nibbana.

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Greetings Green, :slightly_smiling_face: I hope you are very well.

Here are a few thoughts that I hope may provide some stimulation or useful angles of contemplation regarding your questions.

Form, Feeling, Perception, Sankharas and Consciousness - all 5 khandas remain intact and operational while a Being is alive, Enlightened or not.

Only during the different levels of Samadhi are these temporarily relinquished as one moves through the Jhanas, right up to Cessation of Perception and Feeling – which is the only state (of Consciousness) where perception and feeling have totally ceased. (as per SN 36.11 below)

SN36.11
“Good, good, bhikkhu! These three feelings have been spoken of by me: pleasant feeling, painful feeling, neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. These three feelings have been spoken of by me. And I have also said: ‘Whatever is felt is included in suffering.’ That has been stated by me with reference to the impermanence of formations. That has been stated by me with reference to formations being subject to destruction … to formations being subject to vanishing … to formations being subject to fading away … to formations being subject to cessation … to formations being subject to change.

“Then, bhikkhu, I have also taught the successive cessation of formations. For one who has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. For one who has attained the second jhana, thought and examination have ceased. For one who has attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. For one who has attained the fourth jhana, in-breathing and out-breathing have ceased. For one who has attained the base of the infinity of space, the perception of form has ceased. For one who has attained the base of the infinity of consciousness, the perception pertaining to the base of the infinity of space has ceased. For one who has attained the base of nothingness, the perception pertaining to the base of the infinity of consciousness has ceased. For one who has attained the base of neither-perception-nor-nonperception, the perception pertaining to the base of nothingness has ceased. For one who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have ceased. For a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed, lust has ceased, hatred has ceased, delusion has ceased."

However, depending upon the stage of enlightenment, the relationship with the Khandas changes. The further one progresses, the more one understands their arising, and ceasing, and the gratification, danger and escape from each, the more they are relinquished, up to complete absence of grasping or picking up, due to the eradication of all craving, due to complete destruction of Ignorance… obliterated like a palm stump…

So the khandas are intact and operational, but they are no longer grasped - no longer upadanakhadas. This is a critical difference.

This is the full understanding and comprehension of the gratification, danger and escape of the Conditioned (Samsara), of the all, of Existence and of Dukkha. The result of the escape is the Unconditioned, the deathless, the unborn etc. But of course these are not Things or places. Really it is freedom from constructions/conceiving/conceit; freedom from death, freedom from birth etc which are all constructions…

However, experience continues while contact continues.

SN48.37

Analysis (2nd)

“Mendicants, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculties of pleasure, pain, happiness, sadness, and equanimity.

And what is the faculty of pleasure? Physical enjoyment, physical pleasure, the enjoyable, pleasant feeling that’s born from physical contact. This is called the faculty of pleasure.

And what is the faculty of pain? Physical pain, physical unpleasantness, the painful, unpleasant feeling that’s born from physical contact. This is called the faculty of pain.

And what is the faculty of happiness? Mental enjoyment, mental pleasure, the enjoyable, pleasant feeling that’s born from mind contact. This is called the faculty of happiness.

And what is the faculty of sadness? Mental pain, mental displeasure, the painful, unpleasant feeling that’s born from mind contact. This is called the faculty of sadness.

And what is the faculty of equanimity? Neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling, whether physical or mental. This is the faculty of equanimity.

In this context, the faculties of pleasure and happiness should be seen as pleasant feeling. The faculties of pain and sadness should be seen as painful feeling. The faculty of equanimity should be seen as neutral feeling.

These are the five faculties.”

SO, while the khandas are intact there will be contact and there will be experience and feeling, as per SN48.7 above. But one now has tools to manage experience. One is freed through wisdom and so craving is ended. One has access to giving rise to joyful states by skills in meditation, ie while one is subject to the contact which is beyond control – ie the nibbida inducing nature of the world and human form, one can induce pleasant mind contact and dependently arisen happiness by jhanas.

Here is a lovely sutta talking about contact. Also see the one before this SN48.39 The simile of the fire sticks.

Irregular Order SN48.40

“Mendicants, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculties of pain, sadness, pleasure, happiness, and equanimity.

While a mendicant is meditating—diligent, keen, and resolute—the faculty of pain arises. They understand: ‘The faculty of pain has arisen in me. And that has a basis, a source, a condition, and a reason. It’s not possible for the faculty of pain to arise without a basis, a source, a condition, or a reason.’ They understand the faculty of pain, its origin, its cessation, and where that faculty of pain that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. And where does that faculty of pain that’s arisen cease without anything left over? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. That’s where the faculty of pain that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. They’re called a mendicant who understands the cessation of the faculty of pain, and who applies their mind to that end.

While a mendicant is meditating—diligent, keen, and resolute—the faculty of sadness arises. They understand: ‘The faculty of sadness has arisen in me. And that has a basis, a source, a condition, and a reason. It’s not possible for the faculty of sadness to arise without a basis, a source, a condition, or a reason.’ They understand the faculty of sadness, its origin, its cessation, and where that faculty of sadness that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. And where does that faculty of sadness that’s arisen cease without anything left over? It’s when, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and mind at one, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. That’s where the faculty of sadness that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. They’re called a mendicant who understands the cessation of the faculty of sadness, and who applies their mind to that end.

While a mendicant is meditating—diligent, keen, and resolute—the faculty of pleasure arises. They understand: ‘The faculty of pleasure has arisen in me. And that has a basis, a source, a condition, and a reason. It’s not possible for the faculty of pleasure to arise without a basis, a source, a condition, or a reason.’ They understand the faculty of pleasure, its origin, its cessation, and where that faculty of pleasure that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. And where does that faculty of pleasure that’s arisen cease without anything left over? It’s when, with the fading away of rapture, a mendicant enters and remains in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’ That’s where the faculty of pleasure that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. They’re called a mendicant who understands the cessation of the faculty of pleasure, and who applies their mind to that end.

While a mendicant is meditating—diligent, keen, and resolute—the faculty of happiness arises. They understand: ‘The faculty of happiness has arisen in me. And that has a basis, a source, a condition, and a reason. It’s not possible for the faculty of happiness to arise without a basis, a source, a condition, or a reason.’ They understand the faculty of happiness, its origin, its cessation, and where that faculty of happiness that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. And where does that faculty of happiness that’s arisen cease without anything left over? It’s when, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. That’s where the faculty of happiness that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. They’re called a mendicant who understands the cessation of the faculty of happiness, and who applies their mind to that end.

While a mendicant is meditating—diligent, keen, and resolute—the faculty of equanimity arises. They understand: ‘The faculty of equanimity has arisen in me. And that has a basis, a source, a condition, and a reason. It’s not possible for the faculty of equanimity to arise without a basis, a source, a condition, or a reason.’ They understand the faculty of equanimity, its origin, its cessation, and where that faculty of equanimity that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. And where does that faculty of equanimity that’s arisen cease without anything left over? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. That’s where the faculty of equanimity that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. They’re called a mendicant who understands the cessation of the faculty of equanimity, and who applies their mind to that end.”

As such; so far we have seen that feeling arises dependent on contact (SN36.10 below), that where there is contact feeling arises – but, going further, the Noble ones understand the dependently arisen nature, the gratification, danger and escape, and have ceased to be attached, grasp or crave for any feeling. We have also seen that feeling comes in 3 types, and that there is BOTH mental and physical feeling (SN48.37 above) and that these all arise on the basis of contact. But one is freed from feeling – freed from dukkha- by not misperceiving it.

SN36.10

“Bhikkhus, just as heat is generated and fire is produced from the conjunction and friction of two fire-sticks, but when the sticks are separated and laid aside the resultant heat ceases and subsides; so too, these three feelings are born of contact, rooted in contact, with contact as their source and condition. In dependence on the appropriate contacts the corresponding feelings arise; with the cessation of the appropriate contacts the corresponding feelings cease.”

It may be useful to contemplate the questions you pose from the perspective of Contact. How contact arises, and how the process continues after contact… ie the process of DO after perception – either grasping and constructing or seeing it as it is and not attaching or involving and letting it go. Once delusion is dispelled, one can choose whether to engage or not engage, depending on the purpose – it is now a choice (not driven by craving) – ie prior to seeing reality as it is, there is a holding on and grasping to a specific perceived reality based upon delusion (a mirage) and driven by craving (one of the asavas). This is the ground or footing for fabrication, of creating the conditioned. This is the ground upon which the seed of consciousness lands, and germinates due to moisture (craving) as per SN22.54 which you cite.

When consciousness is not ‘established” does not take a footing on perception resulting from contact, the footing or ground is absent and there is no fabrication or construction upon the basis of it. There is no craving for ‘existence’ (Bhavasava) to provide ‘moisture’ – the process is irreversibly broken. One does not construct Birth – there is freedom from birth > the unborn. One does not construct death, freedom from death > the deathless. What you call “the not-disintegrating” because there is no more construction or fabrication (no construction of future existence – kamma) ie nothing to disintegrate because there is no grasping to anything conditioned > the unconditioned.

This is my understanding. I hope that there is something here that may be of some use to stimulate your contemplations :pray:

With best wishes

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Thanks @Viveka ,

Yes, but i think in a direction that might stimulate you to think that this Green person is of track. But anyway, i will share how things live for me. I appreciate a critical view, but not to critical :grinning:

I believe that the sutta’s reveal that while khandha’s and senses are still intact that does not mean that sense-vinnana’s establish in the mind, because for sense-vinnana’s to establish, there must be an element of engagement (MN28, SN22.53 and 54). And that is gone in an undefiled mind. For example, seeing is very different from being engaged with and directed upon something seen. Only in the last scenario eye vinnana’s establish but not in a situation of merely seeing.

I feel that is what the sutta’s reveal. The situation of mind being involved with something seen is a constructed state and coarse and a burden. Anyone can see for her/himself. But merely seeing is of a different nature.

So intact senses or intact khandha’s does not mean they become established. This is, i believe, also the escape from the khandha’s in this very life. The khandha’s do not have to cease to realise Nibbana in this very life according the EBT but they must not establish (or sometimes translated as ‘manifest’) and that is something different.

While the nature of a purified mind is an undirected non-involved kind of knowing, when defilements still infiltrate the citta (pure knowing) and sense-vinnana’s start to establish, i believe, mind in a state of pure knowing comes into a state of sensing something. That is what happens, i believe, due to engagement, defilements.

I believe, when the mind is purified, and thus no sense vinnana’s establish, also feelings do not establish. If something does not establish that means that perceptions and feeling just arise and disappear again.
This is, i believe, the escape from any vedana.

When the sutta’s talk about purifying mind, i believe, they talk about purifying understanding/knowing. A purified and freed mind or knowing can be easily used or applied because it is not governed anymore by inner drifts. This is one of traits of one who has personally attained Nibbana.

About the meaning of the unconditioned i rely on the definition given in AN3.47.
Anything liable to cease is not the unconditioned but conditioned. So, no particular realisation, fruit, or state or formations that is liable to cease can be the unconditioned.

Best wishes from a sunny Fryslan

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I’m sorry if the way I wrote gave this impression :pray: None of it is meant as definitive.

I’ve been exploring this myself and find it very tricky.

It would be great if the Buddha was still around for a quick chat to clear some things up - defintively :smile:

All the best

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I am sorry that i saw your understanding as definitive. I am always a bit to alert and defensive here on the forum.

Yes, i also feel it would be great when Buddha was still around. That would bring some peace of mind i think. It seems we also cannot really rely on teachers because they also do not seem in agreement, even not when they base their understanding upon experiences.

I appreciate that people do not blindly fall in love with all kind of mystical and esoterical buddhist claims that sound beautiful and deep. But resisting this is also kind of extreme, i feel. To resist it feels for me as defiled. There is some underlying aversion.

I very much appreciate your openess in this reply. It invites me to so too. Thank you and wish you all the best. Maybe we meet again.

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Probably people will think…there is this Green again loving debate…insisting on this and that…yes, sorry, I believe this is important and might really be of help. I sincerely believe itis helpful.

There are great buddhist teachers that teach that the ability to know cannot be seperated from life. It is fundamental to life and cannot be destroyed or cease.
This ability to know is very abstract and is like light that pervades all. You must not think of this as a vinnana, but more like light. Knowing is an element of light and vice versa.

I believe the EBT reveal that one must distinguish different kinds of knowing situations:

Vinnana refers to: knowing something that is sensed. This is always a directed kind of knowing moment. Or, knowing directed upon something. Knowing has established upon something. This is sensing something.

Now is the question: is there only knowing via senses, or only knowing as sensing? EBT teaches, i believe, NO. For example, when all senses cease, there is a dimension that can be known (SN35.117). But i also believe that one can intuitively see for oneself that knowing is not the same as sensing something.

The Buddha, i believe, uses the concept of vinnana to refer to the proces of sensing something. The kind of knowledge of vinnana is always an awareness of something.
A directed knowing moment, or a knowing moment directed upon something, or a knowing established upon something that presents itself via one of the 6 sense doors.

It is like the mind seeing someone entering one of the 6 doors in its house. It turns or directs its attention towards that guest, recognises and shakes hands. Now it sees the guest, the sense-object, recognises it etc. This is how a mind with defilements operates.

BUT, i believe, and see for yourself, the Buddha does not teach that this is the nature of mind or knowing. Mind does not have to direct its attention towards the guest and shake its hand. It can also choose to stay where it is. Not become directed.
For this mind there is nothing, even when things still arise.

So, vinnana refers to that kind of knowing that is directed and connected with a certain sense domain and has a sense object as it object. Like inwardly directing attention to one of the 6 doors, walking to the guest, shake hands or maybe chase the guest away.

But Buddha does not say, i believe (but see for yourself) that this is the nature of mind or knowing. No, this is how a defiled and karmically active mind functions.
It becomes engaged (MN28). This is not the desireless, undirected, empty, signless state of mind. Mind or knowing can also be without direction.

This is only arrived at when mind is dispassionate and without any tendency to become established upon something. It is like a mind that does not direct and walk to one of the sense doors and guest and does not shake hands. It abides in its own empty nature.

Often the fragment is used that vinnana knows.…(MN43 ) to make a point that only vinnana knows. But i feel the sutta does not say that.
What the sutta’s reveal, i believe, is that vinnana’s is that kind of knowing that is directed and connected with the sense domains, and its nature is that then something is felt, sensed, perceived. Vinnana is like being present at a sense door and in a sense domain and shaking hands with guests. But this is NOT the nature of mind.

When mind is purified, dispassionate it is in a state of being undirected. The sutta’s refer to this dimension as: the desireless, empty, signless, undirected or uninclined.
I believe this is about mind or knowing that is an undirected knowing.
I believe this refers to mind in its pure state. Unengaged, not established upon a sense domain (it is not a sense vinnana). It is like just letting guest come and go. Not interact with them.

But, see for yourself what the sutta’s teach. This is what i make of it.

That people say that Nibbana is never taught as mind or knowledge is, i believe a mistake. I believe when the mind or knowing is freed from lobha, dosa and moha then this is called Nibbana, extinguishment because this mind remains undirected, and does not become involved in the sense domains. That is its peace, its coolness, its lack of any clinging and agitation. It abides in its own empty desireless, undirected nature. It is very subtle. This dimension also does not construct.

Enough!