A few translation contexts for anattā as not self

Translating atta as “soul”, it seems to me, runs the risk of reducing the Buddha’s teachings about anattā simply to the denial of some particular capital “S” SELF associated with some particular metaphysical doctrine, such as some specific Upanishadic doctrine about the Atman. The teachings’ connection with the cessation of suffering then becomes obscure, because it is perfectly possible for a person with corrected metaphysical views to still suffer. This approach also, it seems to me, artificially carves the anattā teachings away from the teachings about the cessation of I-making and my-making, and introduces an overly sharp split between the teachings about the grand metaphysical SELF of theory, and the everyday self, attā or “I” that is invoked whenever one speaks or think reflexively of oneself in the ordinary sense. The Buddha was talking about the latter just as much as the former.

If the Buddha wanted to restrict his teachings to the simple metaphysical denial of some Upanishadic metaphysics, he would have said so. It’s not that hard to do, and these denials are not that hard to express. But the Buddha said the heart of his teaching was very difficult to grasp and express.

Think deeper about the apple and tree examples:

People might not make the mistake of thinking “I am the apple”, but they still often conceive the apples they regard as belonging to themselves, as something they call “mine”. They conceptualize the apples they see in relation to themselves, to the I and me whose existence they instinctively presuppose.

They might not confuse themselves with a tree, but when they look at a tree, they likely at the same time think “I am looking at a tree.” Again, they conceptualize the tree they see in relation to themselves, to some I and me whose existence they instinctively presuppose. So rather than the content of their thought being filled entirely with the rising and passing forms that make up the “tree”, there is a projection onto that stream of thought of a completely invisible “I” that is supposedly thinking the thoughts or cognizing the forms. This is a much more fundamental and deeply rooted phenomenon than just having mistaken views about whether this I is an atman or some other piece of metaphysical furniture.

Also, people engage in all sorts of other subtle projections concerning the tree and themselves. If the tree is swaying gently in the breeze on a rainy day, and sadness arises in their hearts, thy might think, “that tree looks sad.” And if the tree is standing stiffly and motionlessly they might think or feel,“I am strong.” There is also a kind of pervasive narcissism going on with our experience, where, despite all logic, we have the feeling that what we see exists for us or is “held” in our minds.

I think the Buddha was aiming us toward a much more radically transformed state than the one we might achieve if we see what’s wrong with the doctrine of the Chandogya Upanishad. Since all suffering is rooted in self-regarding states, and pertains to anxieties about the perpetuation of ourselves, or our status in relation to the world and other people, or our fears about the future and regrets about the past, or our possessiveness toward our stuff and our territory, then this suffering is only blown out when the I-making process is suspended altogether.

People don’t just have false beliefs about the permanence, autonomy and eternity of what they are. The whole sense of a oneself that is anything at all is an illusion. There is a constant architectural process going on that builds an “I”, “me” and “mine” out of the raw stream of conditioned experience as it is. And that self that is being constructed is at bottom an illusion. One doesn’t cut through the mass of suffering until the architect is seen. Through very, very advanced spiritual practice - not metaphysical and philological debate - a state can occur where the architect stops building and “in the seen there is only the seen”, etc. not accompanied by the “I” that is usually being fictitiously constructed along with this stream of phenomena.

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Maybe, but all such metaphysical doctrines are finally rooted in our misperception of the world, the taking of what is anattā as attā. That this is so may not be clear as you first come across Buddhism, but that should change as you become familiar with what the Buddha taught. And I suspect this would have been equally the case at the time of the Buddha.

In the end it needs to be understood from the broader context of the suttas that “soul” ideas are not limited to philosophy, but include our deepest misunderstanding of our own nature.

I think we sometimes need to make such distinctions to arrive at sufficient clarity. Attā as a metaphysical self - and also anything related to the I-delusion, by the way - is used quite distinctly in the suttas from attā as a reflexive pronoun. I believe the two usages can quite easily be separated, and there should then be no problem with giving them two different renderings.

An important question is whether “self” properly conveys the meaning of attā as a permanent essence of a being. I am not convinced it does. If it doesn’t, we are making it very hard for readers of the suttas to graps what is going on. And if it is hard to grasp what “self” refers to, good luck with “not-self.”

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Well, the Buddha wasn’t speaking to a modern materialist audience. The word attā includes both what we would think of as “personality” and “soul”, hence “self” is used as an intermediary that hopes to encompass both dimensions.

But to be clear, in the core doctrinal passages where anattā is taught, the primary target is metaphysical doctrines of a soul. It is, in my view, not only misleading, but extremely harmful and dangerous, to teach these as if they referred to the self or personality in an empirical psychological sense.

A large proportion of people who undertake Buddhist meditation do so because they suffer underlying psychological fragmentation, and telling them to meditate on not self is inviting genuine catastrophe. I have seen magnificent, wonderful people whose have had “deep insights into not self” in a retreat, and who believed in the reality of those insights even though these “insights” precipitated a fall into psychosis and long term schizophrenia.

This is, for me, the main reason I would consider very seriously Ven Brahmali’s suggestion of “soul”.

On the other hand, as a musician, the idea that “having no soul” might be a good thing is sheer heresy!

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The framing and conceptualization of attā from a point of reference (in Buddhism,) might help understand the agelong mumpsimus of the brahmanic Self/self.
In other words, what is attā becomes anattā; might the point of reference be moved.

“Continuity” and “pervasiveness” remain the keywords of the Self/self construct in the perennial Vedic world.
“Discontinuity” and “non-pervasiveness” the Buddhist’s ones.

Think about “truth”.
Something might be true from one point of reference. And that truth might not be truth anymore, from another benchmark.
Navigating towards the “ultimate truth” entails the sieving of these truths/untruths.

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I don’t disagree with that, but then the question becomes which one is being invoked in the teaching that everything we experience must be understood as anattā. Is this just the claim that nothing one experiences is a self as construed according to some particular metaphysical doctrine? Or is it the teaching that nothing one experiences is in any way related to oneself?

[quote=“sujato, post:24, topic:4926”]A large proportion of people who undertake Buddhist meditation do so because they suffer underlying psychological fragmentation, and telling them to meditate on not self is inviting genuine catastrophe. I have seen magnificent, wonderful people whose have had “deep insights into not self” in a retreat, and who believed in the reality of those insights even though these “insights” precipitated a fall into psychosis and long term schizophrenia.
[/quote]
Thank you for bringing up this point Bhante, it is something I have actually thought quite a bit about in relation to my own practice, but I hadn’t considered it in relation to translation.

I’ve been meaning to start a thread discussing which EBT practices are psychologically safe to go “hog wild” on, and how to practice in a way that does not lead to psychological harm.

In particular, how much risk is there to develop psychosis and mistake it for a genuine insight? Is there a real risk of “thinking yourself sick” over time? etc. perhaps a seperate thread about this would be interesting.

[quote=“sujato, post:24, topic:4926”]
But to be clear, in the core doctrinal passages where anattā is taught, the primary target is metaphysical doctrines of a soul. It is, in my view, not only misleading, but extremely harmful and dangerous, to teach these as if they referred to the self or personality in an empirical psychological sense. [/quote]
Thank you for communicating in such a straightforward manner Bhante :anjal:

Is it harmful because of the psychological consequences, because it’s misrepresenting the Buddha, or both? I would like to understand your view in more detail, if it is not troublesome for you.

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[quote=“DKervick, post:26, topic:4926, full:true”]… everything we experience must be understood as anattā.
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I like that.

And, following your logic, I would say: “nothing one experiences would be related to the self”.

(Note: “Nothing” including the spheres above the “nothingness” sphere of the higher jhana realms, as well - In other words, “nothing/nostuff”, experienced in the kama, rupa and arupa loke - material and immaterial - would be related to this attā that “moves, changes (and disappears) along the way” - Just like “untruth” moves, changes (and disappears) along its way to the “truth”.)

Attā is a false concept, like “untruth” is a false concept.

Ultimately, attā does not belong to paṭiccasamuppāda.
Yet, Buddha circumscribes that to paṭiccasamuppāda. He does not speculate beyond that.

Ref: AN 11.9

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This must refer to the misapprehension of reality, the seeing of an attā where in fact there is none. This refers both to metaphysics and to one’s misperception of reality. This is not a reflexive usage.

Everything one experiences is related to oneself, in the reflexive sense. In this usage attā is just a reference to a particular group of five khandhas, and there are no doctrinal implications.

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People who have a predilection toward psychosis can presumably be triggered into it by teachings of many different kinds. I would be much more worried about the fact that people can develop psychotic delusions and disordered thinking around such notions as hearing or seeing devas and yakkhas, believing that they have developed clairvoyance, believing that they are remembering past lives, megalomaniacally believing that they have the ability to change world history and the course of political decisions simply by projecting metta or transferring their merit outward from their cushions, etc.

The idea that the ordinary sense of self is constructed out of mental constituents and factors that are not the self is now fairly commonplace in both philosophy and cognitive neuroscience science, and so I don’t see how it is inherently any more likely to dispose people toward disordered thinking.

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Only if one assumes that the ordinary reflexive usage does not itself incorporate a misapprehension of reality.

It’s not just a reference to the five khandhas, I think, but a reference to them as being related to oneself in any one of the many varieties of ways people have conceived of themselves.

It seems to me that virtually every way people have or could understand their self to be, in relation to the khandas, is ultimately declared by the Buddha to be a subject of unwise attention:

“This is how he attends unwisely: ‘Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I become in the future?’ Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the present thus: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?’

“When he attends unwisely in this way, one of six views arises in him. The view ‘self exists for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘no self exists for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive self with self’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive not-self with self’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive self with not-self’ arises in him as true and established; or else he has some such view as this: ‘It is this self of mine that speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and it will endure as long as eternity.’ This speculative view, bhikkhus, is called the thicket of views, the wilderness of views, the contortion of views, the vacillation of views, the fetter of views. Fettered by the fetter of views, the untaught ordinary person is not freed from birth, ageing, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair; he is not freed from suffering, I say.

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Well, of course normal people will misapprehend even ordinary language. But because we are dealing with a linguistic convention, even arahants will use attā reflexively. My point is that when attā is used in the reflexive sense it does not have a doctrinal significance; it’s just a way of communicating.

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Bhante what you wrote here should result in a proper essay, Dhamma talk or better a book - it sums up a key underlying reason for so much insanity among contemporary Buddhists.

Please do consider exploring this further in a way more people can appreciate the risks of taking anatta in such a mistaken way.

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I think people then and now take external things as self all the time. Their favorite sports team, their internet forum, their favorite shirt, their city, their ideas. If someone says something about their city, clothes, discussion group, their sports team, they react as if you just personally insulted them, their self/soul feels violated.

People have rioted and killed each over sports teams during playoffs. If you’re willing to kill for something, I’d say its a good chance you’ve got your soul/self identified with it.

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I know it’s just a joke, but I interpret “having no soul” in a musical context as simply meaning the artistic idea that was being expressed has not been fully invested with sincere and authentic feeling. That goes for any performance art, any written media, any communication in any media even. That concept can be expressed without reference to a metaphysical soul.

Bhante, I think translating atta as “soul” is an interesting idea. But I don’t think using two different renderings is a good idea. In short, if consistently using “soul” even in the conventional pronoun sense may seem awkward, at least the reader will quickly pick up on the fact that it’s the same word soul that is used in other contexts in the metaphysical sense.

As an example, when english translators render “samadhi” in different ways according to context, it can become completely lost on the reader that it’s all connected to samadhi. Ven. Thanissaro translated step 10 of 16 steps of anapana as “steadying the mind”, and I had no idea until I learned the pali that the verb “steadying” was from “samadhi”. But once I knew step 10 was samadhi, then I could see other nuances of that step and that tetrad that I never would have known had I only thought of it as “steadying the mind”

In the same way, loaded important words like “atta”, I think its important to be consistent, or at least have (atta) in parenthesis along with the english rendering so we know.

Generally speaking, mindfulness of breathing and metta are fine. I don’t think I’ve ever told anyone to go “hog wild” on them, but I probably will do in the future!

Any meditation, though, must be done in a balanced and gradual way as part of the overall path.

It’s hard to say, but not that uncommon. The problem is partly just due to the theoretical idea, which is misconstrued and leads to various unfortunate results. But this is severely aggravated especially in the case of the intensive retreat.

Both, but the issue of immediate and grave concern is mental illness.

Well, thanks, I have discussed it in various places, but perhaps it needs more attention. Also, I’m not a psychologist!

Thank you for giving me my new word of the day!

This is true, but it is not unrelated. Anyone who is predisposed to such delusional thinking risks finding it aggravated in intensive retreats. And in the case of not-self delusion, it affects, I would say, a somewhat different spectrum of mental illness. Not so much the delusional kind, but the depressive, anxiety, low self-esteem type issues. People afflicted with these problems need support and positive reinforcement, not to be told that they really are no-one and nothing.

This doesn’t negate the fact. What I am talking about is an empirical reality: people do in fact suffer in this way. Could misapplied thoughts based on neuroscience, etc. also lead to similar problems, especially if done in an intensive way? Quite possibly, but I’m not familiar with the field. Also, I doubt whether those fields attract people specially because they have psychological problems and are looking for a “spiritual” solution for them.

You’re still not fully grokking the differentness of animistic ideas of the self. Sure, people get attached, and there is a measure of identification going on. And this is obviously connected with the idea of self. But this is still within the idea of the self as a personal psychological construct. No-one literally believes that their soul is embodied in a football team and will live on after they die.

This is one of the problems, which a Sri Lankan monk friend pointed out to me many years ago. He said that everyone studies anattā and wants to understand what it means, but no-one studies attā. Until you know what the Buddha was referring to when he talked about attā, how can you understand the negation of it?

In the Milindapanha, there is a very revealing discussion of the self. Someone identifies the self as the breath. This is then refuted by the example of trumpet players. If the self is your breath, what happens to trumpet players when they’ve expelled all their breath?

It’s almost impossible for us to appreciate how literal and concrete these ideas are taken to be in animistic settings. I never understood this through studying Buddhism, but only after studying ideas of the self in anthropology.

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Is there any evidence that mental illness is higher among Buddhists than non-Buddhists?

Yes, that’s interesting. Personally, I have never been on a retreat, so I don’t know what the likely outcomes are. I generally do about an hour of meditation a day, sometimes up to two hours on days when the opportunity presents itself, and try to live according to the precepts in with sense-restraint and mindfulness. I have a fairly quiet, non-stressful life, so don’t feel much of an urge to get away into severe isolation for an extended period of time. But I might try it some day.

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I just don’t think this is possible. How would you say “oneself” using a word that involves “soul”? Personally I am satisfied the two contexts are so different that nothing much is lost if we translate them differently.

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Yes, that must be part of the problem. Also, some people who are victims of abuse or have a lot of guilt and all embracing self-loathing might think of the not-self teachings as a kind of invitation to practice a kind of mental suicide. So rather than learning to see and accept the things that arise and pass away in their minds with a kindly and detached attitude, they practice strong aversion toward the thoughts they loath and detest, and push them all away in an impossible attempt not to think anything at all.

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