A Folk Exploration of a Set of Parallels, SA 450, SA-3 20, SN 14.17, SN 14.25

SA 450 with interlinear gloss of parallels:[quote]如是我聞:
Thus I have heard:
(parallels are from SN 14.17 & SN 14.25, from SuttaCentral’s hosting, translator unknown, the Pāli hosted at SuttaCentral lacks an incipit or opening formula, it goes straight to the Buddhavacana. The English translation hosted has an opening formula, but with no incipit (“Thus have I heard”). Does anyone know why?)

一時,佛住舍衛國祇樹給孤獨園。
One day, the Buddha dwelt in Śrāvāstī, in Jetavana, Anāthapiṇḍada’s park.
(SN 14.25) At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anāthapiṇḍika in Jeta’s grove in Sāvatthī.

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:
At that time, the Bhagavān told many monks:

「眾生常與界俱,與界和合。不信時與不信界俱,
All life constantly accompanies its elements (dhātu) both-together, accompanying elements are fused. Not believing presently accompanies the not believing element both-together,
“Bhikkhus, beings get together and agree according to the elements. Those without faith, agree with others without faith.

犯戒時與犯戒界俱,無慚無愧時與無慚無愧界俱;
Violation of śīla presently accompanies the violation of śīla element both-together, without shame, without propriety presently accompanies the without shame without propriety element both-together;
Those without shame, agree with others without shame.

信心時與信界俱,持戒時與持戒界俱,慚愧心時與慚愧界俱。
Believing citta presently accompanies the believing element both-together, upholding śīla presently accompanies the upholding śīla element both-together, dignity and propriety (some dictionaries list “repentance” as a compound meaning of these two words) citta presently accompanies dignity and propriety element(s?) both-together.
Those with faith, agree with others with faith. Those with shame, agree with others with shame.

是故,諸比丘!當善分別種種諸界。」
For this reason, myriad monks! Appositely virtuous differentiation distinguishes all manner of myriad elements."

佛說是經已,諸比丘聞佛所說,歡喜奉行。
Buddha’s words this sūtra thereafter was, many monks heard Buddha teach it, and] joyful, practiced it.

如信、不信。如是精進、不精進,失念、不失念,正受、不正受,
Thus is believing, not believing. Thus so is persevering, not persevering, losing worry, not losing worry, true acceptance, no true acceptance,

多聞、少聞,慳者、施者,惡慧、善慧,
much questioning, little answering, the miser, the philanthropist, wicked and clever, virtuous and clever,

難養、易養,難滿、易滿,多欲、少欲,知足、不知足,
difficult births, simple births, difficult completions, simple completions, many desires, few desires, to know satisfaction, to not know satisfaction,

攝受、不攝受界俱,如上經。如是廣說。
absorbing sensation***, not absorbing sensation***[, these] elements [are] both-together, thus so [is the] report [on this] sūtra.

*** 攝受 (shè shòu) is listed in the NTI Buddhist Chinese dictionary as being a Chinese rendering of the Sanskrit parigraha, but I think this might be a Mahāyāna reading of the characters, as there is no Pāli equivalent listed, and there usually is. Parigraha means “to protect/uphold”. Aparigraha is a value in Hinduism I believe, but I am unfamiliar with the word in a Buddhist context.[/quote]There are some interesting differences. In the sutta, the elements are mentioned once, and then there is a list of agreements expounded. In the Chinese, that each corresponds to an element is repeated each time.

The āgama also has a closing narrative that the sutta is missing, in addition to the standard enigmatic (quite possibly scribal) āgama ending. As always there are numerous areas where I am not quite 100% sure of the proper historical reading of a given set of characters.


SA-3 20

I have so many questions about this collection that I don’t know where to begin asking. Its even formatted quite differently from SA and SA-2 āgamāḥ, it is also differently structured and has some features I haven’t seen before (such as the “佛說:” tagged at the very end!). It is closer to the sutta-parallel than the SA recension seems to be, or at the least, it does not have SA 450’s curious preoccupation with elements.

Instead the word of the day here is 相 (xiāng, xiàng), which is represented by “mutually” in the exploration below, but could have also been “appear as,” “are marked by,” “observe,” or “are observed as,” to name just a few readings. It is also very frequently a Chinese stand-in for lakṣaṇa/lakkhaṇa.

[quote]聞如是:
Heard thus so:

一時佛在舍衛國祇樹給孤獨園。
One time the Buddha was in Šrāvastī, in Jetavana, Anāthapiṇḍada’s park.

佛告諸比丘:「比丘!諸不聞者,不聞俱相類相聚相應相可,
The Buddha said to the myriad monks: "Monks! Many are non-hearers, non-hearers are both-together mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning,

多聞者,多聞俱相類相聚相應相可;
many are questioners, many questioners are both-together mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning;

慳者,慳俱相類相聚相應相可,
misers, misers are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning,

布施者,布施俱相類相聚相應相可;
philanthropists, philanthropists are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning;

黠者,黠俱相類相聚相應相可,
the shrewd, the shrewd are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning,

癡者,癡俱相類相聚相應相可;
the confused, the confused are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning;

多欲者,多欲俱相類相聚相應相可,
many are the lustful, many are the lustful altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning,

少欲者,少欲俱相類相聚相應相可;
few are the chaste, the few chaste are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning;

難持者,難持俱相類相聚相應相可,
the difficult sustainers (those for whom it is difficult to “sustain/uphold”?), difficult sustainers are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning,

易持者,易持俱相類相聚相應相可;
the easy sustainers (those for whom it is easy to “sustain/uphold”?), easy sustainers are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning;

難給者,難給俱相類相聚相應相可,
the difficult givers, difficult givers are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning’

易給者,易給俱相類相聚相應相可;
the simple givers, simple givers are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning;

不足者,不足俱相類相聚相應相可,
the insufficient, the insufficient are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning,

足者,足俱相類相聚相應相可;
the sufficient, the sufficient are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning;

不守者,不守俱相類相聚相應相可,
the non-practitioners, non-practitioners are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning;

守者,守俱相類相聚相應相可。」
the practitioners, practitioners are altogether mutually ranked mutually congregated mutually responding mutually functioning."

佛說:「比丘!如是,黠人當分別是因緣,可行者當為行,不可行者當為莫行。」
Buddhavacana: “Monks! Thus so, shrewd men appositely differentiate these causes and fates, able fabricators [are?] apposite without fabrications, unable fabricators [are?] apposite without cessation of fabrications.”[/quote]

1 Like

So I don’t pretend to be an expert in the field of Buddhist Chinese translation. I say this because I have come to realize that many of the categories of people described in my attempt to make sense of SA-3 20 are wrong (for instance, what I rendered as the “few chaste” and “many lustful” appears to actually refer to “alpeccha” & “rāgacarita”!). There are actually errors in the renditions of exactly who these groups described were throughout each parallel rendition, but most mistakes seem concentrated in my attempts to render SA-3 20.

I will try to correct them over time, if such a time exists when I think they are all corrected I will delete this disclaimer.

@Coemgenu

[quote=“Coemgenu, post:1, topic:4905”]
多聞、少聞,慳者、施者,惡慧、善慧,
[much questioning, little answering, the miser, the philanthropist, wicked and clever, virtuous and clever]

For your reference :

Learned , ill informed , miser,
giver , clever yet wicked ,
virtuous and intelligent .

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@Coemgenu

[quote=“Coemgenu, post:1, topic:4905”]

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:
At that time, the Bhagavān told many monks:

{ at that time , the World Honoured One told the Bhikkhus }

「眾生常與界俱,與界和合。不信時與不信界俱,
All life constantly accompanies its elements (dhātu) both-together, accompanying elements are fused.

{ all being has always been living
in the realm that are related
(to their kammic ) accordingly }

Not believing presently accompanies the not believing element both-together,

{ (Therefore) without confidence
(in the dhamma) (they) thus
shall live in relation to the
realm without Confidence
( in the dhamma ) accordingly } .

Best wishes .

[quote=“James2997, post:4, topic:4905”]
Not believing presently accompanies the not believing element both-together,

{ (Therefore) without confidence
(in the dhamma) (they) thus
shall live in relation to the
realm without Confidence
( in the dhamma ) accordingly } .
[/quote]What inspires you to choose realm instead of element for 界 / dhātu?

I come from a Mahāyāna background, so I am quite fine and used to seeing “realm” as a translation for dhātu universally, but I find many people who are only exposed to Theravaāda literature, for them I find that “realms” causes stumbling blocks and problems. They think “Do I need to believe in (more) different dimensions (than the Dhamma already seems to require)?” because they don’t understand that “realm” is just another realization of dhātu, and does not solely refer to physical spaces.

@Coemgenu

The reason is pre Buddha time ,
jains , other Samanas
regards Dhatu as Elements ,
and rupa can be elements also.

But , Buddha himself used
it in a different sense that
rupa refer to 6 sense organ .

So, In reference to " outside “
world (Dhatu) versus the 6 sense organ
Buddha teaching refer the (Dhatu)
” Outside " world as " realms "
Instead of elements .

And to abandon the kilesa ,
Contemplating the rupa
as Elements doesn’t help
to severe defilements.

After Buddha parinibbana ,
There is a misunderstanding
by his disciples where they
took the rupa as Elements .

@Coemgenu

[quote=
眾生常與界俱,與界和合。
不信時與不信界俱]

What Do you think ,
众生(being) with elements
or with realms
is more appropriate ?

众生有可能和四大同在,和合吗 ?
众生和境界(Dhatu) 同在,和合 !

当然 ,南传人有时也没有
发现他們的问题所在 !

固执和自以为是 , 是一种偏差 。

我不知道你的看法 !?

[quote=“James, post:8, topic:4905, full:true”]
@Coemgenu

[quote=
眾生常與界俱,與界和合。
不信時與不信界俱]

What Do you think ,
众生(being) with elements
or with realms
is more appropriate ?

众生有可能和四大同在,和合吗 ?
众生和境界(Dhatu) 同在,和合 !

当然 ,南传人有时也没有
发现他們的问题所在 !

固执和自以为是 , 是一种偏差 。

我不知道你的看法 !?
[/quote]I don’t know how I missed your inquiry, my apologies.

My Chinese is a little weak to be 100% confident in what you are saying toward the end of your post, but in the case of 境界, perhaps I do agree moreso with “realm(s)” as a rendering, as in this case, “element(s)” would probably sound more confusing. I do find, generally however, that “elements” is a more “neutral” reading, i.e. it does not conjure up the idea of a physical place necessarily. The “physical space” and “other dimension” overtones of “realms” is what I have seen cause many odd questions from people in the past, hence my earlier comment of “stumbling block”.

Of course with understanding and familiarity, it is not hard to realize that these “realms” are not necessarily “other dimensions”, and so I wouldn’t never be “against” using realms as a rendering, it was just interesting to see in your previous post.

[quote=“James, post:6, topic:4905”]
After Buddha parinibbana ,
There is a misunderstanding
by his disciples where they
took the rupa as Elements .
[/quote]I’m not sure what you mean here, do you mean that after the parinibbana the disciples applied a misunderstanding to the Dhamma, namely that the body was composed of catvāra mahābhūtāṇi, air water fire etc?

Exactly . The ascetics and other
followers were Influenced by
the previous tradition they followed before joining Buddha Sangha’s .

The being(众生)rupa (色),
6 sense organs in regards to
the 6 type of realms (Dhatu) ,
Dhatu(界) here’s referring
to the corresponding
sights , sounds , odors ,
tastes , touchings , dhammas .
which is called dhatus by the Buddha.