A path without a heart

I think that this is probably the case that I’m grappling with here. I have a feeling that ‘like’ buttons are not even food, but rather low level poison (maybe more like cigarettes). I don’t have any firm evidence for that, although there are some studies online - I’m presuming that Facebook has more studies than they share with us stashed away. I note that Instagram (owned by Facebook) has been playing with removing some of their ‘like’ functionality in some territories because they are beginning to understand the toxic side effects.

Good to have you on board Bhante!

There are some recent Watercooler topics, like: Buddha :smiley_cat:Beings, Most Beautiful Pictures, Buddhist cartoon fun/wisdom, Haiku, Original Buddhist Poems

Is it a good idea to remove the heart from that Category and topics?

The heart symbol tends to touch the heart. It can remind us to be aware of our emotional response and avoid extremes. And it gives some indication of the individuals and community preferences and so where to contribute that it benefits others. I also think it is a nice symbol - subtle outline in boundless space.

But removing it for a while, just to see the real effect on oneself and others in this online community is I think wise.

When there’s a long thread, and you press the “Summarize This Topic” button, that might look to all the posts with more hearts, showing only those (because they were deemed more important, impactful, higher quality, etc). So that functionality might stop working properly as well. Just saying.

I guess I’m not really advocating anything for the forum at this stage. Just doing a bit of due diligence and raising the issue.

What I’ve used here is (by necessity) a very blunt instrument, just to give myself a bit of insight. I’ve hidden the counts of likes (and list of people who have given likes) on all posts that I see, and I’ve removed my ability to give likes.

I think Instagram are playing with keeping the concept of likes, but you can’t see other peoples counts, only your own. They have a profit driven business model that they are pursuing, so we shouldn’t necessarily follow their lead.

One thing that might be considered is only allowing certain users to like posts. For example, maybe we would want to restrict the ability to like to celibate mendicants only?

Both Bhante Sujato and I have made these so they don’t display on our computers. But of course we can display anything we want in it’s place - a reminder to ‘be kind’ or a dancing :unicorn: for example. :slight_smile:

Maybe, but I’m not sure. Some initial research shows that users use like buttons for all sorts of things. For example, for bonding purposes rather than simply liking the content.

On the other thread I suggested that maybe we need more than just the ability to single click ‘like’ and maybe some more single click emoticons:

:smiling_face_with_three_hearts: :innocent: My subtle heart has gone and only emptiness is left. :innocent: :wink:

I have no idea what the algorithm for this is, but that seems quite likely.

How about a :white_check_mark: or :heavy_check_mark: instead of the :heart: ? That would fit every user case described so far… :thinking:

Mmmm… interesting … I don’t think just changing the icon helps with the problem, as it’s still has the same qualities.

Shirley Cramer CBE, Chief Executive of RSPH in the UK who is in a better position to speak than I suggests:

“While we welcome steps by industry to mitigate harms related to social media use, it is notable that two of the most toxic elements of platforms are the like button and push notifications – elements specifically created by social media companies themselves.”

While we have a mechanism to turn off push notifications, we have not got a mechanism to turn off the like button. Well, obviously I have now, but it’s not generally available or default behaviour.

Having said that, the system knows when we have seen a post, so it’s entirely possible that the system might be able to automatically indicate this by way of a tick with no user intervention. I’m sorry but I don’t know if this is actually possible using the discourse software.

These are obviously design decisions that were taken (either consciously or unconsciously) some time ago when DD was set up, before we (as a society) started to realise that there might be a problem.

Indeed, and that is exactly what it is for. It’s a reminder that empathy and support are the foundations of a healthy discussion. TBH I already miss my little hearts!

Indeed, the creators of Discourse had previously made Stack Exchange. There you can see they had a clear intentionality about the model, it is specifically about getting quality answers to detailed technical questions. And for code and the like, it’s pretty good, on the whole. But like any forum on- or off-line, it really depends om the quality of the contributors.

They took the lessons from that and applied it to a more general discussion platform, incorporating best practices for ensuring healthy communities. And again, I think they have done a great job on the whole, with the understanding that. In the end, it’s about the people. Any tool needs care.

There’s a nice discussion of the Discourse philosophy on this here. Worth a read!

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As I understand it as consumers of the commercial product Discourse, we are stuck with the hearts — unless we have the technical nounce to hide them for ourselves. Right eh @helpdesk-dd?

So we may as well accept and move on:

:heart: this one says that I’ve read most of the posts above.

:purple_heart: this one says that I agree with some of them.

:heart: this one says that I love you all.

:broken_heart: this one says that love is impermanent— as Bhante Sujato reminded us in his Dhamma talk tonight.

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The last of the heart symbols I have not seen before - it is quite beautiful. It reminded me of the ancient art of Kintsugi and also of the glass of water that Ajahn Brahm used to explain human relationships. He used it for a simile, many years ago. Is it in any of his books and if so, which one? Thanks.

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That link and the links in that link are fantastic. Thanks Bhante. I’ll need to dig deeper. I feel that I’m now beginning to understand the experiments that Instagram are doing around removing the toxicity from likes and the issues around the discourse interface where a forum has a mix of fact and opinion.

Can I disable/hide likes?
Disable Likes - admins - Discourse Meta

Is that the plastic vs glass tumbler simile? I think that might be Ajahn Chah? I love that simile. It appears a number of times in different guises in Ajahn Brahms new book.

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Thank you for the e-book. I will have look. As I remember it, the simile of a glass of water A. Brahm used long ago in Sydney, while holding a glass of water, was about human relationships - fragile and to be treated with care, like a glass of water. :pray:

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This is the first edition of this book. Before we (the editors) look at publishing in print (probably end of next year) we are taking feedback. If you have any suggestions to improve it please let me know. Obviously Ajahn Brahm has the final word.

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To put it another way: We’re stuck with them unless Admin decides otherwise. This is a matter to refer to @helpdesk-dd.

Meanwhile, we’re stuck with them. Would you feel more comfortable with something like
a :blowfish: or a :fish: ? Personally, I don’t mind the hearts. It’s only a symbol. The ambiguity in meaning is a good thing imho; they’re great to use when a post shouldn’t be ignored but doesn’t warrant applause. I can think that I’ve indicated that I’ve read your post and you can think that I really admired it. A win-win situation and no harsh words spilt: what could be better?

Furthermore, observing my own reactions to the presence/absence of hearts is a useful way of monitoring my attachment to ego. … So shouldn’t we really be grateful to all the hearts as they help us step-by-step along the path to nibbāna?

:heart:

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As I said to Dana

This is not about a quick fix for something I don’t like. I actually quite like the hearts. Both giving and receiving. I don’t really have a reasoned position yet, but I do have an intuitive uneasy feeling about their implementation on DD. It’s more about creating systems that are as harmless to the users as possible (that used to be part of my job ‘back in the day’, though the standard was pretty low - if the design didn’t result in a member of the public being maimed or killed, I was chuffed).

So think of it more like we’re in the 1960’s-70’s in a public building. Half the people are smoking away quite happily and even the non smokers have to inhale second hand smoke. Some people like smoking (that would’ve been me!), some don’t. Some say it’s healthy, some say it is unhealthy. Then the science starts to become clear that smoking is in fact a problem to public health. Now do we just allow everyone to carry on smoking in that public space as before? Or do we try something else? Obviously it would be lovely if we could detoxify cigarettes, and hopefully we (those who run social media sites) can do that with likes. This is what Instagram (Facebook) are investigating at the moment. For example, in certain territories they still have the like button, but only the individual who has posted can see the count of likes. I guess in time we’ll see what the outcome of these experiments are.

So, the symbol is not the problem. It’s the functionality. It’s a really complex topic including the psychology of social interactions on discussion boards, which I’m only vaguely getting to grips with at the moment (see the links within the link that Bhante provided in his last post as a starting point if you’re interested)

Yes, that is very true. I haven’t read the terms and conditions of the forum since I signed up some time ago, but I don’t think that we restrict DD to only practicing Buddhists with a decent baseline degree of mindfulness? It’s more of a public forum for those interested in the EBT’s isn’t it?

I hope you get where I’m coming from now. I’m not looking for an instant fix, I’m just putting the issue on the table and also investigating what it will mean for my own design decisions should I come to offer a social media platform for other Buddhist projects that I’m engaged with.

I think it’s just a little bit more dukkha, and that a huge amount of energy is going into discussing it, that “fixing” the “problem” could only be a partial fix, that if I still pursued my academic study of conversational interaction it would provide great material for analysis (but anything I discovered would be at best partial), so personally for me it’s an issue that has arisen and that will slip away.

However, as a moderator I’m very happy to see Forum members raising and discussing matters that concern them about the Forum. :pray:

Did you miss the banner that was displayed soon after the beginning of Vassa? It drew everybody’s attention to the publication of posts in this thread. Please read through them Stu.

That’s fair enough. Nobody needed to reply at all. I would’ve got the message. It takes two to make a discussion I guess?

As I suggested in the opening post…

It’s much harder to stop an online discussion without the single click (heart) indicator though. That’s something I’ve learnt so far with this experiment of removing the likes. “You never really know something until it’s gone” the frog said to the fish about water when the fish asked the frog about dry land.

Yes. I know that you have skills in this area and I think that you would be very valuable in making this wonderful forum the best it could possibly be in promoting healthy speech when the time comes for redesign.

As all things do. One day our hearts and suttacentral and all the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha will be gone. What a great teaching Gillian. Thank you.

Thank you for your efforts, you and all the moderators have made this forum such a wonderful environment :pray:

I will

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I think the worst thing about having “heart buttons” is that is creates a dynamic where everyone is pretty much only willing to speak the things which everyone wants to hear. Everyone is pressured into becoming a yes-man (or yes-woman, yes-person, yes-whatever) to the group dynamic, to re-inforcing the status quo. Anyone who has an unpopular opinion, even though perhaps true, and beneficial (spoken with a pure heart, spoken at the right time, spoken gently, etc), will be eventually pushed away from the group.

As long as the status quo is in good shape, then the heart system is a good thing. But whenever the status quo is in bad shape, good luck changing it! The system works against such people who would like to see progressive change of some kind, away from the status quo.

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I must admit, I have never thought / made an importance of the like button before I read this post.
For myself: I push this button when something REALLY resonates with me. That doesn’t mean that I don’t like other posts but I am just not pushing this button all the time.
When I see that for example 1500 people read a post I am not convinced that only 5 people liked this post. Those 5, I think, just “made the effort” to push the button.
I personally, don’t feel more or less valued through a “like”. I write my opinion and thoughts and hope that it is of value for some people here.
We are all different but have the same beliefs. We just approach it different.

As for other platforms. I only use FB (Buddhism and Vegan stuff) and WhatsApp (family). I honestly get a heartache when people aggressively post about the same thing over and over again, every 5 minutes and then discussions and attitude start to build up…Not on Earth would I support this with any kind of button.

This forum has a purpose and to give a :heart: now and then, is for me just what it is: lovely.

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I’m not far into my experiment (of “renouncing” the like buttons and like counts), and I shouldn’t be sharing interim results :wink: , but I must say that I’m enjoying the forum more. It feels like a much better fit for me.

One thing that I really wasn’t expecting is that I feel much more gratitude for other members of this forum since simplifying the experience of interacting with you all. :pray: We’ll see how this progresses over the coming months.

I have other experiments planned for myself, such as reintroducing giving likes, but not having the like counts and ideally I’d like to run an experiment to see likes on my own posts, but not others. I hope my IT skills are up to it. :slight_smile:

I started building websites a few years ago in my spare time; before that I knew next to nothing about them. But I’ve learnt that the UI/UX (User Interface / User Experience) is much more crucial to the way that I feel and learn when I use them than I ever thought (thank you @Shivam your knowledge and help have been enormously useful). UI/UX covers all sorts disciplines from psychology to computer science, and just like architecture and design in the real world influences individual and community behaviour, UI/UX does this in the online world.

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