A question about the Zen imagery of the moon obscured by clouds

Discussion
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First, pardon me for my ignorance of Zen. Is the image of the moon obscured by clouds generally accepted to mean sense data is obscured by imagination? Imagination being another word for cognition. If not, how is it interpreted?

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Hehe, Zen! :slight_smile:

Metaphors in Zen often depend on the specific teacher, but generally speaking (especially in Eihei Zenji’s Shōbōgenzō) Moon represents the buddha-nature, enlightenment aspect.

Generally, Cloud can be seen as a metaphor for Saha World (in the form of being a form), obscuring the innate light of the Moon. Although sometimes clouds can be used in a different setting, when paired together that’s usually the meaning. This generally means all conceptual, dualist thinking, standing in the way of direct unspeakable insight.

Also it’s a remark on how clouds obscuring the light of the Moon doesn’t mean the Moon is not bright, it just doesn’t appear so to us. Likewise, everyone carries the Buddha-nature, but that being so, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s bright; and just because it’s brightness doesn’t show, doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Of course, this is just a basic remark. In Zen, poetic descriptions and ever-changing definitions are the norm, so sometimes the clouds may shine the Moonlight, sometimes clouds may look like a fake Moon. Sometimes it’s sun & clouds. So again, context matters greatly. More than what the images represent, the specific relationship a master is describing matters more. :slight_smile:

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I think that buddha-nature is described in Ud 1.10. It is only the seen, only the heard, only the felt, there is nothing imagined/discursively thought/cognized. Is that the general underderstanding of buddha-nature?

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So, I’m not sure we can find Buddha-nature in Pāli Canon, except in a roundabout way, through inference, etc. :slight_smile:

Simplest way to understand it would be anicca, so that for all sentient beings, dukkha is bound to end at some point, so everyone is going to achieve enlightenment at some point, no sentient being is barred from enlightenment.

Mahayana schools get into all sorts of fantastic theories and ideas around the subject, but that’s the most basic sense of the word, generally. :slight_smile:

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Wouldn’t this amount to a fallacy of composition?

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That sutta expounds a process, a way of perceiving that points directly into awakening. The process is an activity. An activity that leads to freedom. Its not trying to describe what a Buddha is or isnt. There is certainly no mention of “Buddha Nature”.

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Another term for buddha nature is tathagatagarbha. SN 12.20 fits somewhere in there.

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Saying “Buddha-Nature” is no different from saying “Buddha” except it points to a mark of the Buddha, something we all have that makes Awakening possible. It’s a simple formula, one good to make sure of.

Buddha-Nature cannot be pinpointed anywhere, neither can any other aspect of a person, nor the person. That does not mean we cannot learn things from the Dhamma, or from our potential for Enlightenment.

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Again - does anicca amount to a fallacy of composition?

Mahayana takes greater liberties with certain vocabulary, and sometimes they’re hard to reconcile with Nikayas. But Buddha-nature really is just taking Buddha saying “All sentient being can achieve enlightenment”, really. Some do take it to a certainty, and there’s all sorts of fantastic ideas :slight_smile:

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I think you are right. I think it was gleaned from the passage in Ud 1.10.

I think Ud 1.10 has the explanation of why it is true.

For what it’s worth:

The seen, the heard, the felt, and the cognized/thought and imagination is suffering.
That suffering can cease. It ceases when cognition ends.

In the phrase “When in the known is only the known”, “only the known” is the seen, the heard, the felt. “The known” is the seen, the heard, the felt, and the cognized.

The cognized depends on depth perception. Vijnana is depth perception. It creates a “here” and a “there”. Here is where the “you” are(namarupa/proprioception/being in the world). This separates the salt from the water. “you” is the cloud obscuring the moon.

When proprioception is completely disabled, “here” and “there” collapse into one. Eventually, the body disappears. There is no “you” in the “that”/the world. Nothing. No salt and no water. This is the end of suffering. This is nibanna. Nibanna is the moon.

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Well, no. Statements such as, “All saṅkhāras are impermanent,” and “Whatever is subject to arising is subject to ceasing” are propositions, not arguments.

For a fallacy of composition one needs a compositional argument, such as, “Every component of the house is light; therefore the house as a whole is light.”

Or, as in the present case, “Each and every instance of dukkha is impermanent; therefore dukkha as a whole is impermanent; therefore it’s inevitable that all beings will be liberated from dukkha.”

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Bhante. :slight_smile:

Again, whether it refers to only the potential of enlightenment, or whether a certainty is debated even in Mahayana.

For the sake of argument though, I’d say anicca can be used to understand that all conditions will come to an end, and thus there won’t be a single soul left. I would say that unless that were the case, then it would make some Ships of Thesseus permanently evolving and undying, thus reifying that stream of continuity. Maybe?

I’ve found that some Mahayana schools, and especially Zen, are more concerned with useful perspectives. After all, the general understanding is that all of Dhamma is a fabrication (as in, reality doesn’t neatly obey our ideas, for example 5 khandas, but they’re useful and practical approximations to make things easier).

So the better question would be to ask “How does it serve to think about Buddha-nature of all sentient beings?” The answer then could be: Understanding that all sentient beings, in their wise and perverted ways are trying to overcome suffering, that they’re all capable of reaching the truth, that there’s no eternal damnation waiting for anyone as is told in some religious texts. Anyone can, following Buddha’s example, applying wise attention to the world, can arrive at the same liberating conclusion.

I think that such a perspective can help people cultivate brahmaviharas, respect and patience towards sentient beings.

:pray:

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Thanks for expressing that so clearly Bhante. I think much confusion arises from interpreting the Buddha’s statements as arguments rather than propositions. Suttas such as SN22.59 Anattalakkhaṇasutta don’t stand up to analysis as an argument.

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Well, I think it’s a bit of a mistake to expect too much from ancient texts. The arguments in ancient Greek philosophy, for example, tend to contain even more egregious errors, arguing from analogy and so on.

For your own practice that may be, but on this forum we are interested in what the Early Buddhist Texts have to say about such things.

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And respectfully Bhante, to understand some Mahayana texts, that’s precisely the question you need to ask to divine what it’s authors might’ve had in mind to insert such ideas. :slight_smile:

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Rather then getting lost in a tangle of speculation on what the authors of mahayana texts were intending or not, we are fortunate in being on this EBT forum and can just look at the suttas for the Blessed Ones teaching.

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From FAQ:

Not everyone here is an Early Text maximalist, or profess a faith in Pāli Canon that others have. This being so, while these forums are generally focused on what’s called Early Buddhist Text, this doesn’t mean there aren’t posts discussing Brahmanism, Mahayana, all sorts of tangential topics, even current events. I’ve seen Bhante Sujato discussing some Mahayana sutras here respectfully as commentaries to root suttas.

Indeed, most of the work done by Agama translators are coming from Mahayana adherents. So indiscriminately calling an entire section of Buddhism and your neighbours counterfeit, without any arguments, is not a very gentle or right thing to do.

There are practices in Mahayana that is compatible, and incompatible with Nikayas. There’s practices in Theravada that is compatible, and incompatible with Nikayas.

Moderators haven’t closed this thread, so it would tell you that such topics are perfectly acceptable in these forums.

Rather than posting dismissively, you could’ve discussed if the way I’ve laid out how Buddha-nature is understood is compatible with Nikaya/Agama Buddhism intellectually. That would’ve been welcome and interesting.

Saying “I don’t think this concept is compatible with Nikayas, because XYZ” is completely fine.

Saying “Mahayana is counterfeit” is as I understand it, is fundamental sectarianism.

Perhaps @moderators can shed some light on this matter. :pray:

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From the guidelines:

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We are interested in discussing early Buddhist texts, their meaning and historical context, how these teachings evolve and relate to later traditions, and how they may be applied in the present day. If you’re interested in more general Buddhist discussion, there are plenty of other great forums out there.

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Thank you kindly. :slight_smile:

_

Going back to the topic at hand, we can see that in Pāli Canon, Moon symbolism isn’t fundamentally different than how it’s used in later thoughts.

Let’s look at Moons & Clouds in AN 4.50:

Mendicants, these four corruptions obscure the sun and moon, so they don’t shine and glow and radiate. What four? Clouds … Fog … Smoke … An eclipse of Rāhu, lord of titans … These are four corruptions that obscure the sun and moon, so they don’t shine and glow and radiate.

In the same way, these four things corrupt ascetics and brahmins, so they don’t shine and glow and radiate. What four? There are some ascetics and brahmins who (1) drink beer and wine, not refraining from drinking beer and wine… (2) have sex, not refraining from sex… (3) accept gold and currency, not refraining from receiving gold and currency… (4) make a living the wrong way, not refraining from wrong livelihood…

The symbolism of a practitioner’s perfections with the Moon’s radiance in AN 5.31:

The moon so immaculate,
journeying across the dimension of space;
outshines with its radiance
all the world’s stars.

So too, a faithful individual,
perfect in ethics,
outshines with their generosity
all the world’s stingy people.

Waxing & waning Moon to symbolise Good & Bad qualities in AN 10.14:

It’s like the moon in the waning fortnight. Whether by day or by night, its beauty, roundness, light, and diameter and circumference only decline. In the same way, monk or nun who has not given up these five kinds of hard-heartedness and has not severed these five shackles of the heart can expect decline, not growth, in skillful qualities, whether by day or by night.

It’s like the moon in the waxing fortnight. Whether by day or by night, its beauty, roundness, light, and diameter and circumference only grow. In the same way, a monk or nun who has given up these five kinds of hard-heartedness and has severed these five shackles of the heart can expect growth, not decline, in skillful qualities, whether by day or by night.

In verse in AN 4.19:

If you act against the teaching
out of favoritism, hostility, cowardice, or stupidity,
your fame fades away,
like the moon in the waning fortnight.

If you don’t act against the teaching
out of favoritism, hostility, cowardice, and stupidity,
your fame swells,
like the moon in the waxing fortnight.

And another praise in AN 8.45:

All of the wealth that’s found in this realm—
pearls, gems, fine beryl too,
mountain gold or pure gold,
or the native gold called ‘coruscant’—

they’re not worth a sixteenth part
of the mind developed with love,
as starlight cannot rival the moon.

The only difference is that in Mahayana literature, this latent potential to achieve enlightenment has a name, while Pāli canon does not.

EĀ 17.5 also describes the waxing & waning aspect and ties the Moon’s qualities to the practice of the path.

With metta and respectfully.

:pray: :lotus:

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