A quick note on the dangers of dating

The Chandogya Upanishad is widely held to “predate” Buddhism, and this is almost certainly so, but it is a mistake to take any particular verse in the Chandogya and assume that it is by definition earlier than any particular verse in Buddhism.

Take the case below:

Tena kho pana samayena brāhmaṇassa pokkharasātissa ambaṭṭho nāma māṇavo antevāsī hoti ajjhāyako mantadharo tiṇṇaṁ vedānaṁ pāragū sanighaṇḍukeṭubhānaṁ sākkharappabhedānaṁ itihāsapañcamānaṁ padako veyyākaraṇo lokāyatamahāpurisalakkhaṇesu anavayo anuññātapaṭiññāto sake ācariyake tevijjake pāvacane:
Now at that time Pokkharasāti had a student named Ambaṭṭha as his resident pupil. He was one who recited and remembered the hymns, and had mastered in the three Vedas, together with their vocabularies and ritual performance, their phonology and word classification, and the testaments as fifth. He knew them word-by-word, and their grammar. He was well versed in cosmology and the marks of a great man. He had been authorized as a master in his own tutor’s scriptural heritage of the three Vedas with the words:

“yamahaṁ jānāmi taṁ tvaṁ jānāsi;
“What I know, you know.

yaṁ tvaṁ jānāsi tamahaṁ jānāmī”ti.
And what you know, I know.”
DN3

VS

॥ सप्तमोऽध्यायः ॥

अधीहि भगव इति होपससाद सनत्कुमारं नारदस्तं होवाच यद्वेत्थ तेन मोपसीद ततस्त ऊर्ध्वं वक्ष्यामीति स होवाच ॥ ७.१.१ ॥

|| saptamo’dhyāyaḥ ||

adhīhi bhagava iti hopasasāda sanatkumāraṃ nāradastaṃ hovāca yadvettha tena mopasīda tatasta ūrdhvaṃ vakṣyāmīti sa hovāca || 7.1.1 ||

Nārada went [for spiritual instruction] to Sanatkumāra and said, ‘Sir, please teach me.’ Sanatkumāra said to him: ‘First tell me what you know already. I’ll teach you from that point.’ Nārada said—

ऋग्वेदं भगवोऽध्येमि यजुर्वेदं सामवेदमाथर्वणं चतुर्थमितिहासपुराणं पञ्चमं वेदानां वेदं पित्र्यं राशिं दैवं निधिं वाकोवाक्यमेकायनं देवविद्यां ब्रह्मविद्यां भूतविद्यां क्षत्रविद्यां नक्षत्रविद्यां सर्पदेवजनविद्यामेतद्भगवोऽध्येमि ॥ ७.१.२ ॥

ṛgvedaṃ bhagavo’dhyemi yajurvedaṃ sāmavedamātharvaṇaṃ caturthamitihāsapurāṇaṃ pañcamaṃ vedānāṃ vedaṃ pitryaṃ rāśiṃ daivaṃ nidhiṃ vākovākyamekāyanaṃ devavidyāṃ brahmavidyāṃ bhūtavidyāṃ kṣatravidyāṃ nakṣatravidyāṃ sarpadevajanavidyāmetadbhagavo’dhyemi || 7.1.2 ||

Sir, I have read the Ṛg Veda, the Yajur Veda, the Sāma Veda, and the fourth—the Atharva Veda; then the fifth—history and the Purāṇas; also, grammar, funeral rites, mathematics, the science of omens, the science of underground resources, logic, moral science, astrology, Vedic knowledge, the science of the elements, archery, astronomy, the science relating to snakes, plus music, dance, and other fine arts. Sir, this is what I know.

CHU7.1.1

Now it seems that the Buddhist text was set when there where only 3 official Vedas, and substantially fewer auxillary sciences, it therefore appears likely that the Upanishad reached it’s editorial closing at a later point than the Buddhist text.

However we are unable to infer anything about the actual composition dates in a comparitive sense, as the Upanishad may have originated in a “three veda” era and merely been updated as the vedas and sciences grew, while the Buddhist text, being less conscerend with the particulars of Brahminism perhaps didn’t bother.

At any rate, there seems to be plenty of nuance to be had before one confidently asserts that “such and such a text” is “pre-buddhist”.

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A quick note on the dangers of dating

I really expected to get information like: “You might fall in love and give up your aspirations for monastic life :smiling_face_with_three_hearts::heart_eyes::kissing_heart:

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Me too!

But yes, both kinds of dating are complex and fraught. Generally, the early Upanishads and the EBTs were composed around the same period, but that is just a generalization and cannot be applied thoughtlessly.

I haven’t looked into this case in detail, but as well as dating, there might be other explanations. The list of Vedic literature is long and complex, and it may have varied among different locations and in different schools. The closest connection with the EBTs is with the Brihadarannyaka/Satapatha tradition, and perhaps the Chandogya is different. It’d be interesting to see the lists of scripture from various early Sanskrit texts.

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The 4th one (the Atharvaṇa veda) although it is a Veda (is entirely pre-Buddhist and in Vedic Sanskrit), it was not accorded the dignity of a Veda as it contains hymns of magic and imprecations etc. Therefore even in the time when it was not recognized on par with the other 3 Vedas, it did exist.

ṛgvedaṃ bhagavo’dhyemi yajurvedaṃ sāmavedam ātharvaṇaṃ caturtham

Here too (in the Chāndogya), the other 3 are called vedas, while the 4th is simply called ātharvaṇa (that of the atharvans) and is not called a ‘veda’.

tiṇṇaṁ vedānaṁ pāragū sanighaṇḍukeṭubhānaṁ sākkharappabhedānaṁ itihāsapañcamānaṁ (from DN3)

This means “expert in the 3 vedas (along with their etymologies, ritual applications, and pronunciation), and the itihāsa (traditional legends) being the fifth”.

Curiously the fourth (the Atharva veda) is not mentioned here even though the fifth is mentioned as the “fifth”.

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Right, and the same is true of the suttas, where we find only one mention, at Snp 4.14:13.1, where it is also not called a Veda:

Āthabbaṇaṁ supinaṁ lakkhaṇaṁ

If we were to assume that the mention of the āthabbaṇa by itself was evidence of lateness, that would imply this sutta of the Atthakavagga is late. Obviously I don’t think that’s the case, but it is another example where such mentions can be misleading in isolation.

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Yes, and I was ready to share the story of Ajahn Chah and the “jar full of the girlfriend’s poo…”

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I was more in mind of those true crime documentaries my dad watches on Netflix.

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This too is a danger in sensual pleasures visible here and now

:face_with_hand_over_mouth:

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It seems like it might be better to say that some of the sources or traditions which formed the basis for the composition of the Chandogya Upanishad predate Buddhism.

Bronkhorst seems to call into question the dating of some of the Upanishadic material. It seems like it’s dated as pre-Buddhist because it contains ideas which we know to have influenced Buddhism (or other Samana movements). But the evidence for the ideas influencing Buddhism is that the ideas are contained in the Upanishads, which we know to predate the Buddha. It’s a circular argument. That’s not to say that there isn’t other evidence that some of the Upanishadic material predates the Buddha.

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I know, I just disagree with him. I find him to be a curiously unpersuasive scholar; I can never really understand why he expects us to believe the things he says.

The suttas routinely quote from or otherwise refer to ideas and arguments found in the early Upanishads, while they never do the same for the suttas, unlike, say the Yogasutra, which does refer to Buddhist ideas. The two genre of literature have a structural relationship.

There are a whole bunch of other issues as well; the social and cultural state of the early Upanishads is earlier than the Buddha, for example.

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