A Reader’s Introduction to the Pali Nikāyas

[Brahmali]

@sujato

for example, where the only the first and last items in a list are spelled out, and the rest are just mentioned in brief

It is not clear why this must refer to an “internal abbreviation”. The above could apply to both kinds of abbreviations.

[SCMatt]

Very thorough introduction! I learned a lot and it was an interesting read, for me especially interesting was the Ancient Indian religious context.

@sujato

They have been preserved and passed down in the Pali language by the Theravāda tradition of Buddhism as the word of the Buddha.

These texts were originally passed down orally, by generations of monks and nuns who memorized them and recited them together.

This transition from talking about Theravāda as the preservers of the Pāḷi texts, to talking about the early, early oral transmission might make it seem like it was only the Theravāda (or it’s ancestor lineage) preserving them orally originally. I realize the diversity is explained in more detail later, but it might be good to mention at the start?

@sujato

nor of familiar concepts from modern HInduism such as śakti , kuṇḍalinī , chakras, or yoga exercises.

Personally, I would hesitate to call these “modern Hinduism”, most of these concepts come from outsider or more “low-key” traditions. In the West these might be mixed in with a general understanding of “Indianism”/Hinduism. I guess I’m just more familiar with looking at them in the context in which they arose in Medieval India, so I could be wrong on the modern usage.

@sujato

They are not separate metaphysical planes, but mere stations in which consciousness may spend some time during its long journey.

Not really sure what this means? What follows seems metaphysical to me.

[Robbie]

Thank you, Bhante, for this valuable, thorough, meticulous, and lucid general introduction.

A handful of minor suggestions.

• In the last sentence of the paragraph “Nevertheless … or yoga exercises,” the word “Hinduism” is written with two capitals.

• In “The caste who called themselves “brahmins” … Veda” it should be ‘Atharvaveda’; in the next paragraph ‘Zoroastrianism.’

• Grammarly flags 56 issues—for example, it likes to see commas after ‘however’ and ‘usually’—and 350 premium alerts, but listing them here strikes me as overzealous.

• Given the length of the introduction, perhaps it would be an idea to include a plain language summary, for those in a hurry.

[suaimhneas]

Very nice essay. One definite typo was “self-mortfication” (missing the first “i”) in the Cosmology section. On a more minor point, for “large scale buildings” in the In the Buddha’s Day: A Time of Change section, I’d tend to put a hyphen there given it’s an adjective.

[sujato]

@Aminah

I wondered, “what means of reference finding is being encouraged in the ‘In our system…’ bit as opposed to using the sidebar”

Sorry, I’m not exactly sure what you’re referring to here.

@Ocean

It is longish so I guess I just wanted to know the route ahead

There’ll be a ToC in the final version.

@Ocean

Also it winds around a bit for example you mention parallels in the beginning and then again further into the text

Hmm, let me review this.

@sabbamitta

it is very long

You aint seen nothin’ yet. The Samyutta one is twice as long!

@sabbamitta

How actually about links in order to find the required text?

Not now.

@sabbamitta

we read as definition for “husband”: he who possesses her.

This is purely a linguistic definition. The word usually used in Pali for “husband” is sāmī, which has a possessive sense. Not to diminish or sideline the reality of patriarchy in the time, but the Buddhist texts emphasize the mutual support between partners, not subjugation and ownership. There is nothing that corresponds with some later Indian law books that say a woman is subject to a man during her whole life.

@sabbamitta

Does the word “scripture” not necessarily refer to something written?

Again, etymology. It seems to me it’s fine so long as the context is clear.

(BTW, did I mention, you’re an exceptionally good proof reader!)

@Brahmali

It is not clear why this must refer to an “internal abbreviation”. The above could apply to both kinds of abbreviations.

Yes, the explanation is inadequate. How about:

Abbreviations are both “internal” or “external”. By internal reference, I mean that there is enough information in the text itself to fully reconstruct it. Typically only the first and last items in a list are spelled out in full, and for the rest, only the key terms are mentioned. Here is an example from SN 22.137:

Form is impermanent; you should give up desire for it. Feeling … Perception … Choices … Consciousness is impermanent; you should give up desire for it.

In external abbreviations, an abbreviated passage cannot be fully reconstructed from the context, but requires looking up another text to fill in the blanks.

@SCMatt

make it seem like it was only the Theravāda (or it’s ancestor lineage) preserving them orally originally

Good observation, I will revisit the wording here.

@SCMatt

I would hesitate to call these “modern Hinduism”

Hmm, is there a better way to refer to them? Maybe “modern Hindu-inspired spirituality”

@Robbie

Grammarly flags 56 issues—for example, it likes to see commas after ‘however’ and ‘usually’—and 350 premium alerts, but listing them here strikes me as overzealous.

Hmm, maybe I’ll throw it into a grammar parser before publishing, although I usually avoid them.

@Robbie

Given the length of the introduction, perhaps it would be an idea to include a plain language summary, for those in a hurry.

These are intended as in-depth studies for those who want them; there are short intros elsewhere.

@suaimhneas

One definite typo was “self-mortfication” (missing the first “i”) in the Cosmology section. On a more minor point, for “large scale buildings” in the In the Buddha’s Day: A Time of Change section, I’d tend to put a hyphen there given it’s an adjective.

Thanks, done.

[Aminah]

@sujato

Sorry, I’m not exactly sure what you’re referring to here.

Under the subsection “Looking Up References” the section concludes: “Nevertheless, you can use the traditional navigation structure in our sidebar if you wish.” This implies that somewhere earlier in the section you’ve set out the way in which people can look up references on SuttaCentral, but as far as I can tell you haven’t, you’ve set out the logic of numbering system used (which, naturally, is certainly helpful when looking things up, but isn’t in itself an alternative to using the sidebar).

[sujato]

Oh, okay, thanks, I will consider this.

[Brahmali]

I’ve finally read through it and it’s excellent! Well done. The language is simple and accessible. I can see you have put a lot of effort into this, and it really is worthwhile. The spread of subjects covered is superb. It gives people an excellent summary they will not be able to find elsewhere without consulting multiple sources. I now understand why you wanted to write this. You are the best … you know, just like so many others.

@sujato

For the period we are interested in, only some pottery and a few other implements have been found, but no large-scale buildings or other more substantive remnants.

It has been argued by scholars that some of the large mounds around some towns, presumably fortifications, especially around Kosambī, may date to the time of the Buddha or shortly thereafter. This is a quote from Authenticity: “Archaeological excavations at Kosambī have unearthed fortifications dating to as early as the 6th century BCE”. (Härtel, Herbert. “Archaeological Research on Ancient Buddhist Sites”. In: When Did the Buddha Live?: The Controversy on the Dating of the Historical Buddha. New Delhi: Sri Satguru, 1995.)

@sujato

Ganges valley

I think “Ganges plain” would be preferable.

@sujato

After his Awakening, the Buddha traveled among the region, in the area known as the “sixteen nations” ( janapada ).

Is “among the region” idiomatic?

More importantly, I think it is a stretch to say the Buddha travelled in the sixteen nations. In Authenticity we specifically make the point that he travelled in a subset of these countries, specifically those mentioned at DN 18.1, which is roughly equivalent to the central Ganges plain. Even the Deccan and Ujjain are likely to be outside this area.

@sujato

Most of his time was spent in the cities

Perhaps “near the cities”?

@sujato

Traditional clans such as the Sakyans or the Vajjians followed an ancient restricted form of democracy

Do we know that it was ancient? It seems plausible, but is there any evidence?

@sujato

the Atharvaveda is mentioned, but was not yet considered to be a Veda.

Perhaps: “the Atharva is mentioned, but was not yet considered to be a Veda.”

[anon87721581]

Bhante

I read in one of your past posts that the pancupadanakkhandhas might have been a pre-buddhist system of categorising self theories. Then i stumbled across Cūḷasaccakasutta which seems to confirm this (imo). This made me see the pancupadanakkhandhas in a whole new light.

So my request is can we have more information along those lines. About the thought world already existing at the time of the buddha.
For example are there any pre-buddhist teachings on ayatanas and indriyas ?

Although some caution may be necessary . The buddha may have borrowed existing terminology but not necessarily the meaning.

A monk called Gotama, it seems, a son of the Sakyans, who went forth into homelessness from a Sakyan clan, has come… Now a good report of Master Gotama has been spread to this effect: “That Blessed One is such since he is accomplished and fully awakened, perfect in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of worlds, incomparable leader of men to be tamed, teacher of gods and men, awakened and blessed… He teaches a True Idea that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with its own special meaning and phrasing; he exhibits a holy life that is utterly perfect and pure.” Now it is good to see such Accomplished Ones.

I guess the Buddha is the buddha. The revealer of what is hidden.

[Gillian]

Many sadhus for developing this useful and informative resource, which I see myself coming back to frequently in the future. & I look forward to more. I made a fairly fast first pass, but here are a few things:

@sujato

From the 19th century, the manuscripts were edited and published as modern editions in sets of books. In addition, the Pali text was translated into a number of local languages.

I would appreciate a sentence here that indicates which languages the chief translations of the 19th and first half of the 20th century were into.
… Sinhalese? Other modern Asian languages? In Europe I presume English and German came first?

@sujato

Abbreviations are both “internal” or “external”. By internal reference, I mean …

Should this be ‘By internal abbreviation, I mean …’ or ‘Internal abbreviation refers to …’ ?

@sujato

In problematic cases I cross-checked the Pali against the Sanskrit and Chinese parallels;

Do you read Sanskrit and Chinese as well as Pali, or did you consult translations of these rather than originals?

@Brahmali

Is “among the region” idiomatic?

I’m afraid it isn’t; try ‘around.’

[Ocean]

note, however, that that digital edition is widely regarded

that that ? second last paragraph

[sabbamitta]

@sujato

You aint seen nothin’ yet. The Samyutta one is twice as long!

Oh my goodness!
(I discoverd this is an interesting search phrase )

[Mat]

@sujato

among experts in the field

Could we include references to these authors and their research papers?

I realise this is rather a delayed response but in terms of the future it might still be early!

metta!

[Nimal]

Dear Bhante,
I find your essay a very useful source of information for anyone interested in gaining an insight into the history of information we find in Nikayas and much more. I am not sure, though, whether the title “Introduction to Nikayas” really does justice to what you have written because IMO the content is really broad. I also think that it is worth publishing it under a more suitable title for distribution preferably at no cost and making a pdf format available for anyone to download because if it is relegated to where it is now, it will only have limited access.
And finally, the “most high” in the cosmology section, shouldn’t it be “the highest”?.
I wish you the best of health and success in all your endeavors in the spiritual path.
Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu.
With Metta

[sujato]

Thanks once more for all the helpful feedback and support. I have included almost all these suggestions.

@anon87721581

So my request is can we have more information along those lines. About the thought world already existing at the time of the buddha.
For example are there any pre-buddhist teachings on ayatanas and indriyas ?

There is a lot of this to come in the following essays!

@Gillian

Do you read Sanskrit and Chinese as well as Pali, or did you consult translations of these rather than originals?

I read Sanskrit passably. For the Chinese, sometimes I can make things out with the aid of the awesome Chinese lookup tool on SC; other times I rely on essays or translations; and other times, I ask the good folks on this forum for help.

@Mat

Could we include references to these authors and their research papers?

I probably should include references, but I made the decision at the start of these essays to just write them. Honestly, I have put these together in bits and pieces in between my other SC duties, and I simply can’t envisage having the time to chase down all the references. Also, mostly I live in between one room and the next, with no books and random internet. So I decided to forgo the ideal of being academically respectable, and focus on writing things in a readable way. But that’s not really a good excuse!

@Nimal

publishing it under a more suitable title for distribution preferably at no cost and making a pdf format available for anyone to download because if it is relegated to where it is now

Yes, I would like to consider other publishing options. I am not sure what kind of title you’d suggest?

---

Meanwhile, the second essay is up!

The Long Discourses: Dhamma as literature and compilation

This series of introduction to the nikayas was originally published here as drafts for feedback. The final published versions made be read on the main SuttaCentral site. While the content is similar, I will not be updating and maintaining the draft versions here. The Dīgha Nikāya is the first of the four main divisions in the Sutta Piṭaka of the Pali Canon (tipiṭaka). It is translated here as Long Discourses. As the title suggests, its discourses are somewhat longer than those of other nikāya…

[Nimal]

@sujato

I am not sure what kind of title you’d suggest?

How about Origin and Evolution of Pali Nikayas?.

With Metta

[karl_lew]

@Nimal

How about Origin and Evolution of Pali Nikayas?.

With Metta

I’ll admit here that I rather like the current “Introduction” title because it actually reveals Bhante’s sense of humor. It is indeed an introduction and a very very deep one at that.

[Sumanatissa]

@sujato

The Buddha’s teaching is a graduated one, leading from simple principles to profound realizations. This pattern is found within almost all of the discourses in one way or another.

[Viveka]

Highly recommended for everyone to read in order to understand Sutta Central and its purpose

[Khemarato.bhikkhu]

@sujato

Alexander the Great’s troops rebelled at the mere rumor of Magadhan military might.

I assume you meant something like: “Alexander the Great’s troops rebelled rather than attack Magadha.” ?

@sujato

The most famous movement—and the only one to survive until today—was Jainism

“the only other one”