MN 19 is saying you need basis not object… sorry for my english, but what i mean is
Way HH explain MN 19 is you need to practice right context to replace wrong context, in this case the buddha is say “this sensuality not worthy, unbeneficial, etc.”… but HH say, for this kind of sati practice to work in your life when you not meditate, because of course this what we want and lord buddha want us to free from kamaraga always to avoid dukkha even we working and so on like mahanama sutta AN 11.12 i quote above… not only formal meditation retreat time… it “right context” NEED to be working with 6 sense object, because this make up our LIFE. this mean, SAME 6 sense object we cultivate understanding that this not worth raga attitude…
then, when we cultivate this right attitude enough… same 6 sense object is present but now raga attitude is not there… mean, no need to keep active context constant like before… cowherd now sit down and let the cows move because no damger… “cows are there” = ete dhammā in pali mean we see dhamma within dhamma, free from abhijhadomanasa for rhe world mean world/salayatana is there… we purify citta not the world… (but i think arupa we go beyomd 5 senses of course)… this why AN 3.63 lord buddha still walking, I think you not mention amything about this…
cowherd sit down and relax mean we not need active effort, active effort Buddha say is tirimg the citta… but is NECEssary because otherwise wrong attitude for salayatana is there, and that way impossible to have peace…
but cow still moving around mean vitakkavicara still happening… thats why agama parallel say allow thought to arise but according with dhamma, mean right dhamma attitude is there but thought still arise… it not mean allow only SOME thinking and control carefully because like it say cowherd is sitting down relax, cow move freely… means thinking not controlling anymore… HH explain this in many videos…
can allow any thinking mean thinking and cows was not issue… issue was wrong attitude… Hillside say this attitude very diffucult to see and is what SN 47.8 talk about…· not see this attitude, we cannot calm the mind and we replacing object with new object instead, background attitude not changing… this what most people do…
also, you mention vitakkavicara same as sankappa… this probably according more to traditional definitiom, but it cannot be right. otherwise, how can have sankappa in second jhana? If lose sammasamkappa mean no 8fold path anymore, so no sammasamadhi…
MN 111 say first jhana have vitakkavicara chanda adhimokkha manasikara, second jhana same without vittakavicara… this mean sankappa and vitakkavicara not same… maybe you will mention some abhidhamma idea, but i am trying to look only at lord buddha word… lors buddha explanation never lacking anything, we only not enough wisdom… this what HH says also…
so we need arammana for meditation meaning SUPPORT, not meaning commentarial definition “object”… object is what we need right attitude for, object is not our right attitide…
see also SN 35.246… lord buddha say exactly same thing… support of meditation (which mean contemplation originally like i give wikipedia link above) is context of “this CRAVING not beneficial for me…” lord Buddha say one then remove CITTA from object… not say remove object… HH explain that citta is connection with cetana or attitude and kamma/action, so remove citta from object mean remove wrong attitude, not remove object… they always explain citta need to be understood not same as 6 senses, that why suttas say 6 sense complete belonging to mara like SN 4.19, bur lord buddha also saying always our CITTA can be pure… this mean they are not same…
see SN 35.33-43 lot of suttas… saying that the sabba or sarva is always impure with defilement… if we practice base on OBJECT mean we practice base on the all… bhikhu anigha mentiom this point a lot and i really like… showing how object focusing meditation still using maras object like body sensation… see AN 11.9 sandhasutta, saying we meditate base on object is like stupid horse…
maybe you know it or somebody here, but i think lord buddha in one sutta say person who really getting jhana cannot split the samgha…
make sense, because this person not care about this external thing, even if puthujana…
also lord buddha said in one sutta i remember no difference between two bhikkhus (MN 104 now i remember) explaining things like five faculties that include samadhi… this mean, if these early monks disagree then probably long time already fall from original way…
Edit: hillside also say about (thought and cow is no problem, problem is attitude, this is same as MN 109 saying that five aggregate not upadana, but there is chandaraga for five aggregate which is upadana… that chandarage is what SN 47.8 talk about seeing cittanimitta…
so in first jhana five aggregate, which we experience with vitakkavicara, continue exist… but no upadana or chandaraga anymore… that is real freedom
Way HH explain MN 19 is you need to practice right context to replace wrong context, in this case the buddha is say “this sensuality not worthy, unbeneficial, etc.”… but HH say, for this kind of sati practice to work in your life when you not meditate, because of course this what we want and lord buddha want us to free from kamaraga always to avoid dukkha even we working and so on like mahanama sutta AN 11.12 i quote above… not only formal meditation retreat time… it “right context” NEED to be working with 6 sense object, because this make up our LIFE. this mean, SAME 6 sense object we cultivate understanding that this not worth raga attitude…
then, when we cultivate this right attitude enough… same 6 sense object is present but now raga attitude is not there… mean, no need to keep active context constant like before… cowherd now sit down and let the cows move because no damger… “cows are there” = ete dhammā in pali mean we see dhamma within dhamma, free from abhijhadomanasa for rhe world mean world/salayatana is there… we purify citta not the world… (but i think arupa we go beyomd 5 senses of course)… this why AN 3.63 lord buddha still walking, I think you not mention amything about this…
I would agree that in order for there to be Jhāna you need a solid foundation of virtue and sense restraint. AN 3.63 is interesting. I suspect the walking comes after Jhāna, since it would be strange to say one is walking whilst the breath has stopped in the 4th Jhāna. In any case, the suttas overwhelmingly portray entry into Jhāna as being preceded by sitting down to meditate.
but cow still moving around mean vitakkavicara still happening… thats why agama parallel say allow thought to arise but according with dhamma, mean right dhamma attitude is there but thought still arise… it not mean allow only SOME thinking and control carefully because like it say cowherd is sitting down relax, cow move freely… means thinking not controlling anymore… HH explain this in many videos…
In AN 3.101 the 1st Jhāna is said to be “sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagato” which translates as “held in place and restrained by intention; intentionally managed and controlled” The meditation is attained and maintained by putting in the effort to maintain positive intentional thoughts (vitakka-vicāra) which counter the thoughts of sensual desire, ill-will and cruelty. These of course disturb the meditation, which is why true samādhi is found in the 2nd Jhāna. Now there will also be sustained thought and analysis of whatever meditation one is engaged in, which is where the more commentarial interpretation of vitakka-vicāra comes from. Despite the more technical definition in the commentaries of “applied and sustained thought” they still recognise that you need the 3 wholesome intentional thoughts too.
can allow any thinking mean thinking and cows was not issue… issue was wrong attitude… Hillside say this attitude very diffucult to see and is what SN 47.8 talk about…· not see this attitude, we cannot calm the mind and we replacing object with new object instead, background attitude not changing… this what most people do…
In MN 20 the Buddha gives 5 ways of dealing with the hindrances. One of them is replacing the unwholesome thought with a wholesome one.
also, you mention vitakkavicara same as sankappa… this probably according more to traditional definitiom, but it cannot be right. otherwise, how can have sankappa in second jhana? If lose sammasamkappa mean no 8fold path anymore, so no sammasamadhi…
MN 111 say first jhana have vitakkavicara chanda adhimokkha manasikara, second jhana same without vittakavicara… this mean sankappa and vitakkavicara not same… maybe you will mention some abhidhamma idea, but i am trying to look only at lord buddha word… lors buddha explanation never lacking anything, we only not enough wisdom… this what HH says also…
In MN 78 saṅkappa are said to cease in the 2nd Jhāna. Vitakka-vicāra also cease in the 2nd Jhāna, so from the perspective of the Pāli suttas they are synonyms.
And where do these skillful thoughts cease without anything left over? Their cessation has also been stated. It’s when, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and mind at one, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is where these skillful thoughts cease without anything left over.
Translation is Sujato’s. On MN 111, it looks to be a proto-Abhidhamma sutta.
so we need arammana for meditation meaning SUPPORT, not meaning commentarial definition “object”… object is what we need right attitude for, object is not our right attitide…
see also SN 35.246… lord buddha say exactly same thing… support of meditation (which mean contemplation originally like i give wikipedia link above) is context of “this CRAVING not beneficial for me…” lord Buddha say one then remove CITTA from object… not say remove object… HH explain that citta is connection with cetana or attitude and kamma/action, so remove citta from object mean remove wrong attitude, not remove object… they always explain citta need to be understood not same as 6 senses, that why suttas say 6 sense complete belonging to mara like SN 4.19, bur lord buddha also saying always our CITTA can be pure… this mean they are not same…
see SN 35.33-43 lot of suttas… saying that the sabba or sarva is always impure with defilement… if we practice base on OBJECT mean we practice base on the all… bhikhu anigha mentiom this point a lot and i really like… showing how object focusing meditation still using maras object like body sensation… see AN 11.9 sandhasutta, saying we meditate base on object is like stupid horse…
We can say that ārammaṇa is “foundation of meditation” or “object of meditation”. For the early sangha ārammaṇa meant “object of meditation”, from the sources I have read. I don’t think it matters much. When you are mindful of the breath that is both a foundation for meditation and your object, since you are maintaining mindful awareness of it. It feels like the debate around “ārammaṇa” is a bit like splitting hairs. On AN 11.9 I don’t think the “thoroughbred” meditation is something you can just do. Rather I think it is referring to an Arahant or a Buddha. The message doesn’t seem to be “don’t use things for meditation” but rather do not cling to them as the final goal. Things like the Earth Kasiṇa are a means to an end, nothing more.
I might amend this actually. Looking at the commentary to the passage, and the Chinese parallel, it looks like these wholesome thoughts are calmed down before entering the 1st Jhāna
Maybe 4th jhana sitting down, because MN 119 kayagatasatisutta says monk is sitting like cover in white cloth… but for other jhanas not necessary. also is possible this sutta talk about jhana in general, but like normal they use four jhana formula… bhikhu bodhi article say the same thing, cannot take formula too litearlly…
Sutta say jhana sit down to meditate but, this not mean monk have to enter absorption state… SN 36.11 explain first jhana what cease is speech, MN 44 explain vitakkavicara is vacisankhara… why? because only with thinking pondering we can speak,no thinking pondering cannot speak… so this is pratityasamupada relationship… MN 44 is all about samadhi and this way using vitakkavicara means this is same vitakkavicara we use for speech… is not special absorption factor… we have faith in lord buddha that he can find better word for this, he will not confuse for people using same word as the thinking and pondering we use for speaking… so with SN 36.11, we understand speech part is remove, not vitakkavicara… this make sutta perfectly make sense, occams razor, why assume that lord Buddha forget to mention important idea…
sn 54.7 saying anapanasati special quality is eye not getting tired… this mean only in anapanasati we need to close eyes… MN 19 meditation not necessary… and also MN 118 anapanasati teaching only to ariya monks, you never find in Sutta lord buddha teaching anapanasati for laypeople… is advanced teaching, laypeople cannot understand, and they get wrong samadhi instead… Bhikkhu Bodhi essay also showing in sutta never find lord buddha teaching jhana to 5 precept laypeople… and jhana meditation in sutta laways teach with this MN19 or SN 35.246 type teaching, contemplate danger in sensuality and hindrance, because this is what matter… we focus on breath how we fix sensuality, how we develop SN 35.246 like perspective of danger in unwholesam… cannot, because we focusing on object… even anapanasati not object, anapanasati sutta say breathing PAJANATI, not manasi karoti or observation… sañña of sensation is not pajanati at all…
AN 6.73 which hillside talk alot is meaning without understand the kamaraga danger with real wisdom then first jhana impossible, so how we understand danger with object focus, cannot… that why i say above in that meditation abhijjha still there (you not follow ajahm brahm but you see he says still have attachment, object focus is exactly reason for that… object focus cannot have real perspective, have only pleasure and this object saññā present that is not imporant, nothing to do with 4 noble truth…, like i say above, with this absorption practice you see consciousness blinking and flashing etc. and then think “ah, now craving is gone”, but not like this… for getting escape from craving we need understand gratification and danger, lord buddha always say… escape with object never mention…)
also one think i think about is you see many suttas like bhikkhunisamyutta, where mara come to them while meditating… if they in absorption state then how they can listen to him… if can listen to him then make sense can also be in jhana and moving like in AN 3.63… maybe this sutta only talk about first jhana but whole formula is there, but still… is talking about jhana very clear…
but see, here we contradicting MN 19… lord Buddha is saying first jhana is perfectly relax, like cowherd looking at the cows… he not say there is something left to do… so AN 3.101 is talking about lord buddha replacing bad with good thinking part that agama also talk about, not about first jhana is absorption… this mean need to keep suppressed with effort, but after jhana come no need to suppress, cows moving freely… we need to assume suttas are consistent… if MN 19 is saying first jhana is perfectly relax than if we cannot think other sutta is saying first jhana is another way…
this why first jhana in modern idea is “lack”, and always need more, not good enough, but in sutta lord buddha say first jhana enough for arahantship, and like AN 9.47 i quote is like Nibana… mean mind is completely calm and free that time, not “impure jhana wobble” or need to be careful to keep wholesam thinking like you say… that way then not true jhana…
also, reading this argument I think then you are saying first jhana is thinking and pondering? this commentarial interpretation is against MN 19 idea that lord Buddha only need to know “this dhamma are there”… he not say he need to replace with wholesome thought anymore… that is why he feel calm and happy and then first jhana… it is simply but we insist on absorption idea then we create so many complication that lord buddha never talk aboutt…
and also again using commentarial idea of apply and sustain thinking mean we think lord buddha cannot properly explain, i cannot agree with this… if I see way that all sutta make perfect sense with no need of outside ideas, that has to be right way…
of course we know this sutta, it mention in the recent jhana essay from bhikkha anigha also… this another problem, people translate replace OBJECT with OBJECT, but nimitta not mean object… this is people again putting new interpretation into sutta… as SN 47.8 say, if cittanimitta not see then cannot do proper sati… if that nimitta is object then what is difference with unskill monk in that sutta and skill monk? if 4 satipatthana are object and both monk doing 4 satipatthana then what is this nimitta? that mean this is not about object…
also see SN 12.66 I quote above, here lord buddha discuss what is right nimitta… he say for pleasure object we need to recognize anicca dukkha anatta, disease, no benefit… this mean pleasure object is the same, we not change the object. we simply recognize NATURE of object, this is very different thing and, this why sati is REMEMBERING, we remember nature of object, that is what is important… experience object is always changing, so we need to know nature of any object, not choose only one… this the only way our sati practice can really change our life all the time…
like in AN 11.12 again, lord Buddha tell mahanama that if he practice sati while working, he will have pitisukha and gain samahi, this mean he not in absorption… again this connecting with real definition of vitakkavicara…
i see. but then what is the meaning of this? what is kusalasankappa for you? this mean breath focusing is nekkhammasankappa? how can this be… pranayama also practice with breath object and is not sammasati… where is right view aspect in the object attention? when you have only object, your attitude cannot be aware of… that attitude is more important than object. this why many people practicing focus meditation, if something happen, noise, disturbance and cannot practice, they become upset, that is because there is raga there behind object watching but they not aware of it…
if lord Buddha is saying cultivate wholesam sankappa or wholesam vitakkavicara to reach first jhana, then that still means need to practice right thinking, and in MN 19 and SN 35.246 lord buddha do only that, he not mention point where “starting” with the object…
so how will right thinking result in absorption?
we no need to look at commentary if MN 19 already explain what dropping effort and no forceful practice mean… cowherd and cows simile… again this is my main point here, if we accept that commentary should be listen to then i cannot say anything… my idea here is present how i understand meditation can do without later interpertration completely…
this and AN 11.12 are my main points… also what I say above about vitakkavicara and speaking in MN 44… for me this is enough evidence, and if someone have idea thatt absorption is necessary then of course commentaries and “early schools” will support this idea… they are the one who create it…
also, one thing i always think about is if lord buddha really teach absorption then he need to give all these special instruction like in meditation manual today, otherwise his teaching incomplete… but he never do that, because his way is simple but MORE difficult than absorption… this is my experience with HH teaching also, absorption very easy, but wholesome thinking so that mind calm down and allow thinking to happen without defilement is VERY difficult compare to absorption… because when many object and thinking still arising, if your mind not REALLY free from kamaraga hindrance, then of course you will know because you feel the craving… when you focus on object you have no idea if craving still there because this object have nothing to do with 5 senses…
with all am saying here an 5.113 also make sense, lord buddha say without endure 5 senses cannot get sammasamadhi… so if you need special object for no raga to arise mean you cannot endure 5 senses, very simple…
EDIT:
sorry but this cannot be right… lord buddha is saying whoever not know how to meditate like this is not abandon 5 hindrances… that why HH always saying abandon 5 hindrances not easy peasy, 10 day retreat result like people believe… if you depend on object then you still have 5H, because you depend on the ALL like I say above…
of course, again MN 19 saying initially we depend on arammana or support of a special wholesam thinking and active effort, because initially mind still have defilemenṫ and need to purify. this the meaning of AN 3.101 you mention also…
it mean, that time not really peaceful BECAUSE we still depend on particular thinking to keep doing, in this case wholesam thinking… but even then this wholesam thinking not OBJECT, is more like context, because like AN 11.12 we can do this type practice while moving around… not like today feeling sole of feet and thing like that… that is object practice, that is not nkkhammasankappa…
about AN 11.9 also saying, thorougbred person the deva not know what is their support for meditation, this connect when Buddha say mara cannot find person in jhana in MN 25… if their support is object then Mara can find, because six sense object belong to Mara…
so this meditation that gods cannot see is the MN 19 part about cowherd relax, no need to control thinking at all anymore, no support or object, mind can think anything but have ekaggata of viveka and viraga… see? make perfect sense.
Ha, now I check this also meaning of An 10.6… sutta people not understand… that why samadhi is really subtle thing, close but not completely same as nibbana… even first Jhana describe in MN 19 is already this kind of practice that mind not stuck with perception but perception still there, and mind have EKAGGATA on the point of sabbasankharasamatha, not on object… people think “take nibbana as object” but this is joke, how can nibbana be object if object belong to mara…
real samadhi is not easy, we get then we already very close to nibbana… that why even sotapana cannot get in beginning like Mn 14 say… absorption experience puthujana who not celibate can get, become very skill, but continue to have sex… that has no sense, mean danger in kama not seeing thanks to the jhana… lord buddha said kamasukha we have to fear like MN 66, and if we really get jhana we understand evenvmore, and have safe place to be happy without kama ever again…
people not get this result, i say not lord buddha’s jhana.
Sorry for posting so much, but i think found explanation for EVERYTHING i am saying according to HH in one sutta i see in one thread of this forum just now, and also explain why REAL jhana is like nibbana in AN 9.47
this is STAGE 1 of MN 19, contemplate nekkhamma, abyapada and avihimsa, we need to ACTIVE dismantle defilement… after we do long enough then…
Now this is STAGE 2: when lord buddha say mind was enough thinking and no need to keep going, because ACTIVE dismantle is tiresome… then cowherd let the cows go, what need to be destroy is destroy, he sit down at the tree, no problem…
EXACTLY same process is also describe in SN 35.246…
when this complete, lord buddha is meditating perfectly like thoroughbred in AN 11.9, exactly same verse is appearing there like below, and now lord buddhas mind not depend on earth, fire, water, etc… meaning he finally overcome 5H because now he not using thinking Directly, he let the vitakkavicara/cows roam, and citta is in ekaggata, establish in viraga for vitakkavicara, meaning vitakkavicara mind not holding to directly, full dispassion for movement… completely relax with no defilement, and mara cannot see like MN 25, because mara all can do is use 6 sense object (cows).
(also, of course sutta is talking about noble attainment practice, but this why samatha and vipassana are NOT SEPARATE like people think… process is actually very similar… and person who can get jhana then already understood how to temporary dismantle defilement, mean very easy to learn the permanent way… but nowaday focusing absorption practice not teach anything about dismantle defilement… pleasure go away, get busy, mind same like before…)
listen also the great Ajahn Chah, enlightened teacher but even today disciples contradict and many other today also… they not really learn from him…
My friends please listen… why do you think… that ajahn chah say “STILL FLOWING WATER”???
AN 3.63 again!!!
everyone please see also this new video by Ajahn Nyanamoli from minute around 22:00 (watch all if you can).
he explaining exactly this practice, how mind have perfect sati and samadhi after enough right REMEMBERING, not right focus object, and then thinking can ROAM AROUND like the cows and no ragadosamoha is possible… sutta, lord buddha, ajahn chah, all match…
My friends, this lord buddha’s teaching. object not necessary, is later invention and thats why kamaraga and defilement not truly destroy
“buddhist” person attacking with bad language and conceit to a bhikhu like reddit link i show above is result of focusing practice not really working…
Friend, I understand where you are coming from with your evangelical attitude. I have felt many similar emotions in the past. But such an approach is both pragmatically, realistically ineffective and also likely—to some degree—emanating from some unaddressed latent restlessness in yourself. I of course cannot say that definitively—only point you towards investigating your own motivations and emotions for these posts from, as I said earlier, a place of deep sympathy.
My brother once said to me that if someone is truly looking for the truth, they’ll find it. The breadth of applicability and the subtle depth of wisdom in those words still continues to surprise me to this day.
but still, dhamma discussion in correct way lord buddha said is part of out practice…
so if anyone can show i or HH is wrong, they should be able to prove without “this teacher say that” or “this is my experience” or “look how these monks move and why they have dogs”…
i will reply in fair way…
lord buddha said there is also wrong ñana and vimutti, so even if someone say “this is my experience and insight with absorption practice and my mind is free” that is not enough… they need to show evidence according to sutta like HH is always doing… saying “tradition been like this for 2 thousand years” mean nothing… monks not keep vinaya also for two thousand years, even at second council already, so we cannot say that old way is authentic way…
i look for the true teaching, not for one teacher, so anyone can prove me wrong then i change my view easy…
Irrespective of doctrinal points, I think associating with samahita puggala is good. If you feel some teachers helps you not go through life on the edge of a whirring wheel , but centred at your ease in control then all the best to you. But I also feel the level of discourse in the suttas are very profound and deep but very succinctly spoken…
Hmm yes friend, i understand your idea because i also think like this before…
view and idea not so important, stay in present moment is no. 1 importance…
but this is not what lord buddha say, lord buddha say path begin with right view, all wholesam qualities begin with right view, and for right view we need to use our thinking especially in beginning… he not say “stay in present moment to avoid too much thinking is beginning of path”… if no right view then any mindfulness and samadhi we do is not correct, buddha say this in AN 10.105…
and “associating with samahita puggala is good” is also doctrinal point, because whenview of “samahita puggala” is wrong then that change everything… “samahita puggala” with absorption is very different of samahita puggala of this practice lord buddha, ajahn chah and HH explain…
samahita pudgala with absorption mean person who suppress their emotions with the object… this person outside very nice, similing, happy, calm everybody love them, but have hidden emotion that come out if stop practicing, try and see… put that person in difficult situation, in island with no people and little food, and you see the real person that focusing practice was hiding now come out… true colors, like the person angry because their view shown wrong that i link above…
person who practice the kind of samadhi 'doctrinal point" of sutta is explaining will be very different… maybe not so nice and smiling all the time outside, but on the inside they are brave and no matter what emotion come they re like a strong pillar as suttas say… that is real samadhi, not hiding from difficulty temporarily in absorption… ajahn chah was this second type person, i see his disciple are like the first type person… and normal people not see the difference so they have more faith for his disciples because can meet face to face…
i think with this you mean it is not necessary to give detail dhamma explanation…˙ but you have to understand difference of filosophy and phenomenology description that is part of practice… HH always say we need to get information, but information for practice, not for making theory like scienst… again this same like lord buddha say, right view is first, and for that need to receive explanation…
today idea is dhamma discussion and view debate need to avoid because this bad for when object focusing, but this again contradict sutta, because many time lord buddha say dhamma discussion is part of path and he even say debate with other sects is also beneficial if know how to do… if you not practicing focusing meditation then skillful discussion no problem… that is clear to be more similar to lord buddhas idea
we also should remember that "succintly spoken’ in sutta not mean that lord buddha actually teach like that… so many suttas are so short is hard to believe he really say just that… they have to make shorter because oral transmission…
but even though suttas not very detail sometimes, if we join ALL together and we not reject anything, we not say “ah yes lord buddha say this here but actually not mean that” then we see that we get very complete message… if we only really need few “succint spoken” idea like koan or something then early arahant monks will not put so much effort to remember so many suttas they remember only a few with deep message and finish…
also please see what ajahn brahmali write here…
i think he not realize that this apply to absorption practice of ajahn brahm and general modern buddhist also… absorption practice is easier because all these laypeople get and no need to abandon sensuality, only give effort to meditation instruction with object for some time… dont matter if they struggle to get, STILL is not more difficult than give up sensuality in order to enter real jhana…
that absorption jhana is like lottery that you can win if lucky, but jhana suttas are teaching will never happen if you not see danger in sensuality and abandon so that you can find escape…
again… AN 6.73… also AN 10.61, what is cause for five hindraces… suttas explain manoduccarita as desire aversion and wrong view… and this 3 duccarita come from no sense restrain… this mean we still have like for sensuality in our life with sex etc. then how can abandon 5H…
so THIS is more difficult path, and we trying to take easy way with absorption… the right thinking MN 19 describe is also so much diffucult than absorption… why? because nobody understand!
they think is only abstract filosophy thinking…in reality is so subtle that they not even imagine how so they think is simple easy thing… nobody know how to become the relax cowherd…
Yes this results from the work ethic of western societies. The description of tranquility involves not concentration, but abandoning unwholesome states (which does involve work) resulting in the samadhi attainment. The method of the Buddha-to-be in attaining awakening described in Majjhima Nikaya 19 is wholly concerned with the removal and development of the unwholesome and wholesome respectively, with samadhi resulting ("promotes lack of vexation), as well as leading to unbinding.
