A simple definition of nibbana

Discussion
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They construct the conditioned, bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations.
SN 22.79

Since he does not generate or fashion volitional formations, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Not being agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna
SN 12.51

This seems like such a simple definition of nibbana. As soon as one ends volitional formations, then one experiences the unconditioned here and now. It would also indicate that one is alive and conscious during this experience.

So, I am supposing that the short simple definition I provide is wrong. Since it certainly goes against the idea that nibbana (complete and total freedom from suffering) is the cessation of existence or going where Mara can’t find you. It also goes against the idea that belief in rebirth is a prerequisite to attaining nibbana.

Any thoughts?

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The short definition is correct. Its one of those things: concepts of anything are short of the reality of what the concept is referring to -(and sometimes requires a few more concepts to properly flesh it out).

Body witness or kayasakkhi is someone who has immaterial jhana, a stage inbetween a stream entrant and an arahanth. They can also attain to the nibbana element (‘cessation of perception and feeling’). However this is not possible for everyone, especially without immaterial attainments. The implications of this is that someone can describe the ending of craving and ignorance, without having to describe the nibbana (element).

If a physician chose to explain how a certain medicine works without going into the biochemistry of how it works at a cellular level, but explains it in reasonably simple and meaningful terms it would be considered an acceptable statement. Similarly the ending of suffering can be simply (and importantly, validly) explained in terms of removal of craving and delusion.

To put it in another way, removal of craving completely means the ability to advert into cessation of perception and feeling.

The absence of light can be explained as the absence of the sun, or as the state of night.

with metta

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I think this is right. But ending volitional formations is no easy matter. The constructive or volitional side of our mental life is present and active in all ordinary human existence, even in states that are relatively calm and quiescent . If you perceive the world as in any way inadequate, and such perceptions give rise to wants, desires, cravings, aversions, rejections, and the rest, then suffering will be present. Even the slightest feeling of “Ughh … go away from me” or “Pretty … I want that” is, I take it, a constructive formation. So the unconditioned peace of nibbana here-and-now would have to involve an experience of complete and total detachment or mental seclusion (viveka), and a complete (almost certainly temporary) shutting down of the reactive system of desire and aversion.

“Going where Mara can’t find you” is a nice metaphor, I think. Mara is the lord of the sensory realm, the realm of birth and death. If one is so detached as to be no longer engaged with the sensory realm and constructing things out of it, but perceives it passively without in any way reacting to it, then one is not present in any of the activities Mara surveys.

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I think it is wrong because a Buddha still has sankhara aggregate, as described in SN 22.85:

If, friend Yamaka, they were to ask you: ‘Friend Yamaka, when a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, what happens to him with the breakup of the body, after death?’—being asked thus, what would you answer? If they were to ask me this, friend, I would answer thus: ‘Friends, form is impermanent; what is impermanent is unsatisfactory; what is unsatisfactory has ceased and passed away. Feeling … Perception … Volitional formations … Consciousness is impermanent; what is impermanent is unsatisfactory; what is unsatisfactory has ceased and passed away.’ Being asked thus, friend, I would answer in such a way. Good, good, friend Yamaka! SN 22.85

I posted elsewhere, since an arahant is free from ignorance, an arahant does not generate meritorious, demeritorious & imperturbable volitional formations but still generates enlightened/wise volitional formations.

In short, you are quoting the passage: “Since he does not generate or fashion volitional formations” out of context. This passage must remain in its context in SN 12.51 because similar passages remain in their context in MN 37 , MN 140 & SN 22.53, for example, as follows:

But when a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused true knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he does not generate a meritorious volitional formation, or a demeritorious volitional formation, or an imperturbable volitional formation. Since he does not generate or fashion [meritorious, demeritorious & imperturbable] volitional formations, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Not being agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. SN 12.51

When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go). Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. MN 37

He does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being (becoming) or non-being (non-becoming). Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. MN 140

When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is liberated. By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. SN 22.53

:seedling:

[quote=“DaoYaoTao, post:1, topic:5777”]They construct the conditioned, bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations. SN 22.79

Kiñca, bhikkhave, saṅkhāre vadetha? Saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ron­tīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati. Kiñca saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti? Rūpaṃ rūpattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti, vedanaṃ vedanattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti, saññaṃ saññattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti, saṅkhāre saṅkhārattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti, viññāṇaṃ viññāṇattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­rontisaṅkhata. Saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ron­tīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati.[/quote]

This seems to be a very complex passage. The word “volitional” is not found in the passage. The passage seems to be describing the sankhara aggregate (rather than volition) in a very neutral away, in how sankhara aggregate discriminates or objectifies (­_abhi­saṅ­kha­ron­tī_) conditioned phenomena (saṅ­kha­ta) and gives them a sense of solidity in a ‘conventional’ sense.

It think the translation is inaccurate and should be something as follows, similar to the translations of the other four aggregates, which use the word “it”:

And why, bhikkhus, do you call it the constructor or constructing (sankhara)? 'It constructs (­abhi­saṅ­kha­ron­tī) conditioned phenomena (saṅ­kha­ta),’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called the constructor or constructing. And what is the conditioned phenomena it constructs? It constructs conditioned form as ‘form’; it constructs conditioned feeling as ‘feeling’; it constructs conditioned perception as ‘perception’; it constructs conditioned formations as ‘formations’; it constructs conditioned consciousness as ‘consciousness’.

And why, bhikkhus, do you call it feeling? ‘It feels,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called feeling. And what does it feel? It feels pleasure, it feels pain, it feels neither-pain-nor-pleasure. ‘It feels,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called feeling.

:seedling:

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An arahant is free from ignorance, so he does not generate volitional formations. Without volitional formations as condition, he does not have name-and-form that can be used for DO (or can be used as condition for pleasure and pain). No DO can be generated, he personally attains Nibbana (or free from dukkha).

His physical body is still there, but he unable/no longer sees that body as “my body”. The body is still getting old, sick and die, but he does not see “my body” is geting old, sick and die. He knows that the body is getting old, sick and die. He knows that the body is in pain. He understands the impermanent, suffering and not self of that body, so he does not have any trouble with that. He may have some compassions towards it if he sees it is getting too much pain or sufferings, so he may do something to help it relieves that sufferings if possible.

His feeling still there, but he does not see that feeling as “my feeling”. A pleasant feeling is just a pleasant feeling, not “my pleasant feeling”. A painful feeling is just a painful feeling, not “my painful feeling”. He understands the impermanent, suffering and not self of that feeling, so he does not have any trouble or interest with that feeling.

To the arahant, the body that can be used as condition for pleasure and pain is no longer exist, the mind that can be used as condition for pleasure and pain is no longer exist; therefore, he does not have that “name-and-form” which can be used as a condition for pleasure and pain. He personally attains Nibbana.

That’s how I understand.

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How can he do something to help relieve sufferings without using a volition formation? :neutral_face:

What about Iti 44?

Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

7

He can act, think normally, but that volitional formations are just that speech, that action from that body and mind. He is not in that speech, that action. He does not cling to them, he does not delight in them or detest them. He just does what he can do using that mind and body with wisdom. If it works, fine. If it does not work, no problem. He does not think that “I am doing that”. He can say “I rest my back”, but that is just a language that he can use for communication. That’s all. He does not see that “I” is himself or “my back” is his back. It is just that back that he put it to rest. That body is just a body, he does not see that body as his body. That mind is just a mind, he does not see that mind as his mind, So, he is nowhere to be found.

That’s why we cannot find the arahant anywhere even if we know that person is an arahant, and he is with us now.

He is normal, there is nothing wrong with his five senses, but he no longer thinks that I feel this or I feel that or that is my pleasant feeling…What he sees/experiences is a pleasant feeling arises, a pleasant feeling ended, an unpleasant feeling arises, an unpleasant feeling ended… That’s all. He knows when the feeling arises, when it ended, and he has no delight or problem with it.

I know this is hard to see or accept because of self-view.

8

I think confusion about the language used in the suttas is hard to accept.

Yes. He does not cling to the body & mind (rather than acts without volition & a body & mind).

Yes. This is not attaching to nama-rupa as “I” & “my”; avoiding the 9th conditon of upadana. It is not the ending of namarupa & volition. It is only the ending of attachment (upadana).

:slightly_smiling_face:

9

Beautiful. :anjal:

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