A sutta witness to "vitakkavicārā" unequivocally being "thinking and ruminating"

I am writing a long and complex essay about how jhānaṁ comes to be replaced by satipaṭṭhānā in the S prose collection and came across a wonderful intermediate example of the transition in MN125:

They give up these five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom.

So ime pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe

Then they meditate observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of covetousness and displeasure for the world.

kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ.

They meditate observing an aspect of feelings …

Vedanāsu …pe…

mind …

citte …

principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of covetousness and displeasure for the world.

dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ.

… Some elephant training metaphor, then;

In the same way, a noble disciple has these four kinds of mindfulness meditation as tethers for the mind so as to subdue behaviors tied to lay life, memories and thoughts tied to lay life, stress, weariness, and fever tied to lay life, to discover the system, and to realize extinguishment.

evameva kho, aggivessana, ariyasāvakassa ime cattāro satipaṭṭhānā cetaso upanibandhanā honti gehasitānañceva sīlānaṁ abhinimmadanāya gehasitānañceva sarasaṅkappānaṁ abhinimmadanāya gehasitānañceva darathakilamathapariḷāhānaṁ abhinimmadanāya ñāyassa adhigamāya nibbānassa sacchikiriyāya.

The Realized One guides them further:

Tamenaṁ tathāgato uttariṁ vineti:

‘Come, mendicant, meditate observing an aspect of the body, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures.

‘ehi tvaṁ, bhikkhu, kāye kāyānupassī viharāhi, mā ca kāmūpasaṁhitaṁ vitakkaṁ vitakkesi.

Meditate observing an aspect of feelings …

Vedanāsu …

mind …

citte …

principles, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures.’

dhammesu dhammānupassī viharāhi, mā ca kāmūpasaṁhitaṁ vitakkaṁ vitakkesī’ti.

As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption …

So vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ …

third absorption …

tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ …

fourth absorption.

catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

This is so great because it is one of the rare times the two teachings are actually seen together after the five hinderances, where usually one or the other occurs.

It is also great because it decisively refutes the idea that vitakkavicārā isn’t thinking about stuff, because it literally specifies the stuff the monk in question is thinking about before he gives that stuff up and enters second jhana!

The parallel at MA198 replicates the transitional teaching from mindfulness to jhana also, as you know, I put a fairly hefty stock when a parallel is placed in the same collection by both the Pali and the Chinese, as I take it to indicate that the said sutta was “canonized” prior to the sectarian period.

Thought that this might therefore be of interest to the jhana warriors, would love to hear what both sides have to say about it.

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The text is corrupt, see my notes and Analayo’s essay.

https://suttacentral.net/mn125/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=main&notes=sidenotes&highlight=false&script=latin

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Thank you Bhante! Any link or name for the essay?

I think you’ll find it in Analayo’s Comparative Studies of the Majjhima. Not sure if he’s done anything else on this passage. It’s an interesting passage, it’s just that it’s hard to draw any solid conclusions when the underlying text is so uncertain.

To me the central point is that this is a teaching to an otherwise unknown novice, who clearly is not confident in his own understanding. There’s really no chance that the Buddha would use such an instance to introduce a new formulation rather than relying on his standard teachings.

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Maybe this one.

As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of renunciation arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of renunciation has arisen in me. This does not lead to my own affliction, or to others’ affliction, or to the affliction of both; it aids wisdom, does not cause difficulties, and leads to Nibbāna. If I think and ponder upon this thought even for a night, even for a day, even for a night and day, I see nothing to fear from it. But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

MN 19

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Yes! I would go even further and suggest that this is one of those suttas that validates a teaching by putting it into the mouth of the Buddha in it’s “second act”.

You see the same thing with MN35, a teaching, sabbe dhammā anattā never seen before in the previous 68 suttas of the canon, is given by a monk, Assaji, and then in the second half of the sutta, confirmed by the Buddha, word for word, “deep in the woods”. (this sutta also involves the family aggivessana, conincidentally?)

Now, the novice Aciravata doesn’t show up again after MN125, but the prince, Jayasena, shows up again in the very next sutta, MN126, which is also interesting !

In it, the monk Venerable Bhūmija tells the prince;

“Prince, I haven’t heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha.
“Na kho metaṁ, rājakumāra, bhagavato sammukhā sutaṁ, sammukhā paṭiggahitaṁ.
But it’s possible that he might explain it like this:
Ṭhānañca kho etaṁ vijjati yaṁ bhagavā evaṁ byākareyya:

Now, it may of course just be a coincidence, but here we have, in the very next sutta to one where a unique formulation of hinderences-mindfullness-jhana occurs, the same interlocutor being told, “i didn’t hear the buddha put it like this, but…”

Fascinating! (also it’s an abyakata sutta so I am giddy with excitement).

The Budhha then, once again, appears to confirm, word for word, that this new variant on standard tropes is in fact fine and jim dandy like sour candy.

So it appears to me that this is a fairly standard way the canon has of inducting new contributions from lesser known personages.

In fact, it is the contention of my aforementioned essay in production that this is precicely what happenswith the four foundations of mindfullness itself, which, when you actually drill down and look at how it appears to be introduced into the canon, is a “sariputta teaching” first, and only then a “buddha teaching” later.

Just before we leave Venerable Bhūmija though, he appears in one more sutta, SN12.25 where he asks sariputta a question about the abyakata and recieves, you guessed it, yet another innovative combination of previously canonical tropes in explanation. (this is also an example of the “sariputta reversal” that appears to happen in Pali suttas, making sariputta the teacher where often it is the oter monk who is teac hing in the sanskrit, again, the innovation here is probably Bhūmija’s, validated in the Pali by making it Sariputtas)

And guess what happens then?

You guessed it, Ananda “overhears” the discussion, and the Buddha, of course, confirms verbatim what the previous speakers have said.

TLDR
If these where teachings original to the Buddha the canon would preserve them being given by the Buddha, front and centre, from paragraph one, which is not what happens, instead, what is preserved is evidence of doctrinal innovation, and even of the innovators, like Bhūmija, who managed to sneak in to the suttas by way of the Buddha in the deep deep woods" :slight_smile:

Anyway! Back to the original issue, that is this innovative trope from MN125. First, here are the notes refered to by Sujato above:

24.2
‘Come, mendicant, meditate observing an aspect of the body, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures.
Editions vary and it is not easy to decide between them. MS and BJT editions have kāmūpasaṁhita (“connected with sensual pleasures”), while PTS has kāyūpasaṁhita (“connected with the body”), followed by “connected with feelings, mind, and principles” respectively. The Chinese parallel has “sensuality” in first place, abbreviates the next two, then “against the dhamma” for the final satipaṭṭhāna (MA 198 at T i 758b15). Sanskrit texts Pañcaviṁśatisāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā and Pratyutpannabuddhasaṁmukhāvasthitasamādhi-sūtra have kāya. So the balance of the non-Pali texts supports the reading kāyūpasaṁhita. On the other hand, kāmūpasaṁhita is a common term, while kāyūpasaṁhita (etc.) appear only here; but the passage is passed over in the commentary and subcommentary, which suggests that they thought it was self-evident, making it unlikely that unique terms were used. Finally, the overall topic of the discourse is overcoming sensuality through meditation, and it would seem odd for the Buddha to be teaching specialized meditation instructions, found nowhere else, to a novice. Overall, then, I accept the reading kāmūpasaṁhita; see too the next note.

The Pali version, in a unique presentation, has the four satipaṭṭhānas in place of the first absorption, which offers further light on the problem discussed in the previous note. The first absorption is characterized by seclusion from sensual pleasures, while vitakka is still present. Clearly one is not “thinking of sensual pleasures” at this point, so the reading kāmūpasaṁhita is unproblematic. But it is not clear that one is not having vitakka for the body (and feeling, mind, and principles). For example, in mindfulness of breathing one is applying the mind or “thinking of” the breath, in other words “thinking of the body”. Thus the reading kāyūpasaṁhita would be difficult to fully explain. Any conclusions on this passage, however, are tenuous, and it seems likely there has been some textual corruption. Indeed, the Chinese parallel here has all four absorptions as usual.

And Analayo;

Another implicit reference could be seen in the relationship established in a Pāli discourse between cultivation of the establishments of mindfulness and the first absorption. The passage in question depicts a progression from an establishment of mindfulness cultivated in the absence of thought directly to the second absorption (MN 125). This could convey the impression that at
least the first absorption is implicitly included once the four establishments of mindfulness are mentioned. Consultation of the Chinese parallel, however, makes it fairly probable that the presentation in this Pāli discourse is the result of an error in textual transmission (Anālayo 2006a). It follows that a reference to the four establishments of mindfulness would also not imply absorption.

(Analaya 2006a is here btw:

https://journal.equinoxpub.com/BSR/article/view/8819/10271

)

Now, all that the above really shows is that there is some doubt about the the semantic range of “thoughts about sensuality” and “thoughts about the body”, and that the text is, indeed, innovative, in combining two well established tropes in a way not seen elsewhere.

In terms of the first issue, well, thouhts “of the body” can certainly mean “saucy” thoughts in idiomatic english, and I see no reason why the two possible terms can’t be seen as near synonyms anyway.

As for the second issue, as per above, there are reasons to suspect that this is not textual corruption in the sense of copyists simply garbling the two well know tropes, rather the mention of the novice in question, and the connection of the prince with another known “innovator” in Bhūmija, is suggestive of this text actually being an intentional inclusion of a teaching by a monastic after the dispensation of the buddha had ended, but retrospectively validated by having the buddha repeat the teaching in the second half of the sutta.

Analayo in his 2006a says;

While the Madhyama Āgama discourse proceeds from a basis in moral con-duct directly to the practice of the satipaṭṭhānas, the Pāli discourse follows moral conduct with sense restraint, contentment, wakefulness, the practice of mindful-ness together with clear comprehension, and the removal of the fi ve hindrances, after which only it turns to the practice of the satipaṭṭhānas. The Pāli version’s presentation in this way corresponds to the standard descriptions of the gradual path in other discourses. Due to giving such a full account of the gradual path, the Pāli version of the DantabhūmiSutta takes up satipaṭṭhāna only subsequent to the removal of the fi ve hindrances, at a stage of the gradual path where normally the development of the jhānas has its place.

But this makes it soundlike the Agama version doesn’t precede the Jhanas with Satipathanna, but it does, exactly like the Pali, it simply skips the steps before that.

Analayo then goes on to say;

This positioning of satipaṭṭhāna is unexpected, since according to the Pāli and Chinese versions of the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, awareness of the presence of the fi ve hindrances is an integral part of satipaṭṭhāna practice.42 A discourse in the Aṅguttara Nikāya even recommends the practice of satipaṭṭhāna in order to over-come the fi ve hindrances.43 Thus one would not expect satipaṭṭhāna practice to be appropriately placed only after a removal of the fi ve hindrances

But this seems not at all right, after all,

‘All the perfected ones, fully awakened Buddhas—whether past, future, or present—give up the five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom. Their mind is firmly established in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. They correctly develop the seven awakening factors. And they wake up to the supreme perfect awakening.’”
‘ye te, bhante, ahesuṁ atītamaddhānaṁ arahanto sammāsambuddhā, sabbe te bhagavanto pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe catūsu satipaṭṭhānesu supatiṭṭhitacittā sattabojjhaṅge yathābhūtaṁ bhāvetvā anuttaraṁ sammāsambodhiṁ abhisambujjhiṁsu.
Yepi te, bhante, bhavissanti anāgatamaddhānaṁ arahanto sammāsambuddhā, sabbe te bhagavanto pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe catūsu satipaṭṭhānesu supatiṭṭhitacittā satta bojjhaṅge yathābhūtaṁ bhāvetvā anuttaraṁ sammāsambodhiṁ abhisambujjhissanti.
Bhagavāpi, bhante, etarahi arahaṁ sammāsambuddho pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe catūsu satipaṭṭhānesu supatiṭṭhitacitto satta bojjhaṅge yathābhūtaṁ bhāvetvā anuttaraṁ sammāsambodhiṁ abhisambuddho’”ti.
DN16

So there is at least one major trope, occuring prior to DN22, and certainly, if are talking about suttas with Agama parallels in the parallel collection, prior to MN10, that explicitly asserts that the hinderences are first removed, then the foundations established, then the seven enlightenment factors, culminating, as they do, in samadhi (jhana) and upekkha (4th jhana).

they then go on:

According to the Pāli and Chinese versions of the Dantabhūmi Sutta, the func-tion of satipaṭṭhāna at this point is to overcome thoughts related to the household life.44 From the perspective of the Pāli discourse, this specifi cation is puzzling, since if the practice of satipaṭṭhāna were to take place after the fi ve hindrances have already been removed, there would be little need for it to perform the func-tion of overcoming thoughts related to the household life.

This seems a little simplistic to me, surely monks where wrestling with their demons and purifying their minds in a more complex and human way than the checklist tickbox presentation of the tropes, why should we think that there is some definitive order to these parts of the picture, we have just seen how such orders can be called into question by picking and choosing the tropes or suttas we like to highlight what we prefer.

Analayo goes on;

an expansion of the original account could have taken place along the lines of a full treatment of the gradual path of training. That is, the long account of the disciple’s practice of sense restraint, contentment, wakefulness, practice of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and removal of the fi ve hindrances, found in the Pāli version, could be such an expansion. It may not be too far-fetched to assume that during oral transmission, a reference to the arising of a Tathāgata could have caused the reciter(s) to continue reciting a full account of the gradual path, as such a full account would normally be required when a refer-ence to the arising of a Tathāgata comes up during the recitation of a discourse.If this section in the Pāli version should have been accidentally expanded during oral transmission, the treatment of satipaṭṭhāna, which usually is not explicitly mentioned in accounts of the gradual path, would thereby have been displaced to a later section of the discourse. Such a displacement would explain why satipaṭṭhāna stands in a place where usually one fi nds the jhānas, a placing that does not fi t the purpose satipaṭṭhāna should perform at this junction accord-ing to both versions of the Dantabhūmi Sutta, namely to overcome thoughts related to the household life.

But all this is given to explain why the sekkha appears in the Pali version, and therefore why the foundations occur after the hindreances, as we have already pointed out, the foundations already occur after the hinderences, in a widely distributed trope, first given at DN16, so there seems no need to look for a “deeper” explination, a similar agrgument is given about the three knowledges, again, that the Chinese and the Pali differ in thier tendancy to expand certain tropes seems to carry very little argument here, which seems more motivated by a desire to see doctrinal consistancy form Analayos perspective.

This is even more evident in the case of the next point:

Another signifi cant diff erence is that from satipaṭṭhāna practice without thoughts, the Pāli version continues with the attainment of the second jhāna, whereas its Madhyama Āgama counterpart also takes the fi rst jhāna into account. The presentation in the Pāli version is surprising, since it seems to imply that the practice of thought-free satipaṭṭhāna corresponds to the attainment of the fi rst jhāna. Though satipaṭṭhāna meditation can function as an important foundation for the development of the jhānas, satipaṭṭhāna in itself does not constitute a form of jhāna.

This is just manifest wishful thinking on Analayo’s part, the Agama parallel does not “take into account” anything at all, merely giving the standard MA trope;

In the same way, Aciravata, when the noble disciple contemplates the internal body as body and does not think a thought related to sensual pleas-ures (and so on up to) contemplates feelings, mental states and dhammasas dhammas and does not think a thought related to what is not rightful, then in this way the noble disciple follows the instructions of the Tathāgata. 25. When the noble disciple follows the instructions of the Tathāgata, the Tathāgata further tames the monk: “you should dwell secluded from sen-sual pleasures, secluded from evil and unwholesome states (and so on up to) attaining and dwelling by having accomplished the fourth jhāna!”

This makes the same step from “desensualised” body contemplation (or “disembodied” body contemplation) to jhana as the MN sutta does,

The Realized One guides them further:
Tamenaṁ tathāgato uttariṁ vineti:
‘Come, mendicant, meditate observing an aspect of the body, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures.
‘ehi tvaṁ, bhikkhu, kāye kāyānupassī viharāhi, mā ca kāmūpasaṁhitaṁ vitakkaṁ vitakkesi.
Meditate observing an aspect of feelings …
Vedanāsu …
mind …
citte …
principles, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures.’
dhammesu dhammānupassī viharāhi, mā ca kāmūpasaṁhitaṁ vitakkaṁ vitakkesī’ti.

As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption …
So vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ …
third absorption …
tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ …
fourth absorption.
catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

Basing the thought that some technical distinction is being drawn in the Chinese because of the insertion of one more “guides them further”, is, as I say, wishful thinking. Both suttas draw the connection between the four foundations, the stilling of sensual/bodily thoughts, and the jhana sequence. the Agamas don’t mention the first jhana, just the begining of the trope and the fourth.

Anyway, this is more or less the entire argument given by Analayo in support of the idea of textual corruption; that the text can’t be right becasue the foundations come before the hinderences, and becaus the foundations without vitakkavicārānaṁ still don’t constitute jhana.

I submit that rather than compelling evidence for textual corruption this is just as persuasivly read as evidence of doctrinal evoution, capturing a moment in the history of early Buddhism when Jhana was beginning to fade and Satipathanna was beginning to assend in prominence.

Regardless, it is a fascinating and provocative Sutta, and one that can be pondered and interrogated to great profit, IMO.

Metta.

Yeah, thanks @Dunlop ! you make a great point, here is another sutta talking directly about thinking thoughts, stilling thoughts, and jhana;

If they often think about and consider thoughts of renunciation, they’ve given up sensual thought to cultivate the thought of renunciation. Their mind inclines to thoughts of renunciation.
Nekkhammavitakkañce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicāreti, pahāsi kāmavitakkaṁ, nekkhammavitakkaṁ bahulamakāsi, tassaṁ taṁ nekkhammavitakkāya cittaṁ namati.

…then a bit about cows, then;

My energy was roused up and unflagging, my mindfulness was established and lucid, my body was tranquil and undisturbed, and my mind was immersed in samādhi.Āraddhaṁ kho pana me, bhikkhave, vīriyaṁ ahosi asallīnaṁ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṁ cittaṁ ekaggaṁ.

Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.So kho ahaṁ, bhikkhave, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja vihāsiṁ.

And just on the neat tick box thinking that I was criticising before, here we have again a seeming “contradiction” in that the Buddha has already;

Still, thinking and considering for too long would tire my body.Api ca kho me aticiraṁ anuvitakkayato anuvicārayato kāyo kilameyya.

And when the body is tired, the mind is stressed.
Kāye kilante cittaṁ ūhaññeyya And when the mind is stressed, it’s far from immersion.Ūhate citte ārā cittaṁ samādhimhāti.

So I stilled, settled, unified, and immersed my mind internally.
So kho ahaṁ, bhikkhave, ajjhattameva cittaṁ saṇṭhapemi, sannisādemi, ekodiṁ karomi samādahāmi.

And so presumably is already in second jhana, but the trope starts from 1st anyway, not because of textual corruption or intricacies of doctrine, but because that’s how tropes work.

It’s worth for the sake of balance appending @sujato 's note to this bit;

The first absorption still has vitakka , which above was rendered “thought” since it was clearly a verbal process. Jhāna is, however, a state of “higher mind” where all mental processes are elevated. Pleasure is no longer the coarse stimulus of the senses, seclusion is no longer just being physically isolated, rapture is no longer exciting. And vitakka is no longer the activity of verbalizing thought, as the burden of the sutta is to show that even wholesome thought prevents absorption. Rather, it is explained as a subtle process of placing the mind and keeping it in place (as defined at MN 117:14.2). The English word “thought” in the sense “to bring something to mind” might be elastic enough to cover this sense, but it is apt to be misleading. | The late canonical Peṭakopadesa has an interesting analysis that precedes the commentarial Theravadin understanding of this point (Pe 7).

I would simply note of this note that the seems no pressing need in the sutta itself to make this distinction, the whole thing making perfect sense, as does MN125, just assuming that jhana means concentration on or absorbtion in the teaching of the buddha, that is simply arousing a self-hypnotic religious fervour by thinking about the buddhas teaching, then allowing the thinking to settle ala the trope, etc etc.

So while there may be compelling religious reasons to make this distinction*, in terms of the texts themselves, they make just as much sense read in the straightforward way, without having to posit some semi-secret change in meaning in the same terms between one half of the exposition and the other.

Finally on the point of order that a mere lay follower like myself might beg to differ with an ordained monastic on this matter I cite SA347 which suggests that even in the pre-sectarain, canonical period, the monks where already losing the direct knowlege of what the 4 jhanas where, being replaced with liberation by wisdom (and satipathana!).

*what I mean here is that monastic practitioners may have meditative experiences that compel them to make the distinction

Metta.

No doubt an excellent opportunity for a long thread that ends up getting locked!

Have you looked at the material that Frankk put together on this topic a few years back? He gives many, many sutta references to support this same view. Here is one example:

Searching on ‘Frankk vitakka’ brings up an abundance of material.

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According to dictionary on this website: takka too means thinking and cara is similarly a word that can stand on its own.
That brings the question, if vitakkavicara was simply “thinking and whatever the other word means” then why not use takkacara instead?

I am no Pali expert but I’ve noticed that there are plenty of words starting with vi: vitakka, vicara, vicikichha, vinnana.
Are these connected in some way by the preposition vi?

If so then “vitakkavicara” would be a particular way of thinking and whatever the cara word means.

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lol! Thanks @Charlie ! This site is such a treasure trove, and there’s nothing new under the sun i guess :slight_smile:

While I am decisivly in favour Ffrankk here, my main interest is in the equally overwhelming, but much more subtle and obscure,.evidence that the four foundations of mindfulness is developed after the buddhas lifetime and then inserted into the sekkha patipada in different ways by different schools and even different reciters, so that we wnd up with sort of “snapshots” of a process whereby in the SN collection jhana is actively removed and replaced with satipathana.

Its a long and intersting story, and the V&V stuff is really a minor part of it.

In fact its so long, and so complicated, that insort of despair of ever writing it up. Analysing every occuramce of the khandhas and jhanas in the pali and chinese agamas was a cakewalk by comparison.

:slight_smile:

I think as there were many meditators who attained Jhana (Concentration or something similar), Buddha probably taught them using the same methodology they are familiar with. They first attain Jhana and may be go into deeper jhana’s, then contemplate dhamma(5 hindrances, 3 signs, 5 skandhas etc) which leads to freedom.
Satipattana meditation starts from sati(Mindful) and watchful and examining what is happening in terms of body/mind/feeling/dharmma.
Both meditations will achieve freedom but the satipattana itself doesn’t have the stages of Jhana.
In Anapanasati sutta it describes how a simple breath mediation can fulfill all 4 sati pattanas. It’s not that breath mediation is special - any meditation can fulfill all 4 sati pattanas.

Perhaps this will help?

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This particular argument is an old one. Basically, to simplify it a bit, EBT studies encouraged people to discard the Buddhist exegetical tradition and make up their own theories about the meaning of certain words that they were obsessed with. Which were mainly the keywords in the jhana descriptions. It played into theories of modern meditation teachers. That was the “political” context, as it were. I guess they still argue about it somewhere in the Buddhist Matrix. It’s like a burning coal mine that never goes out.

Anyway, I think you might want to branch out a bit. Read some exegetical texts from the Buddhist tradition. In cases like this, it’s deceptive to ignore them because there’s no meaningful commentary in the old sutras.

It’s unfortunate that most of the exegetical texts aren’t translated (and auto-translators are the worst at translating them because they use technical language). Such is life in Buddhist studies. A person has to learn at least a couple ancient languages to access a good cross-section of primary texts.

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Whoops! I thought you where replying to my other thread! Yes! It looks like Ffrankk mounted a very thorough case for the “normal language” reading of jhana, a position i am in complete agreement with, and since the canon itself records a period where the practice was basically lost i see no reason why much later exegesis should change my mind about it.

Metta

What parts of the canon do you have in mind here?

I don’t think most people are being contrarian and just disagreeing with monastics to disagree with monastics. There is a big difference between being able to use words in a sentence and recognizing the experiential signature feeling or “sign” that many of them refer to.

I would argue that the goal of four jhanas is the cessation of namarupa. To a modern westerner, this amounts to the cessation of language processing due to the absence of signature feelings or signs that enable the parsing of sense data into a “world” with “me” in it. This unity is an impenetrable, unparsable, and therefore indivisible mass of sense data.

Prior to this, words must be defined by metaphors that are meaningful to people given their cultural context. I think this is what people are looking for when they theorize about the “meaning” of certain words. Words like vitakkavicara and parimukhaṁ, which translators clearly struggle with, I say this because I notice that I often see translations change when I revisit MN119, are essential for understanding basic meditation instructions. If there are noncanonical commentarial texts that help with this problem, why do translations of MN119 vary materially so much?

Hi josephzizys,

These disagreements go back a long way. See my link to Ven Dhammanando’s summary of the discussion between frankk and others here:

Personally I don’t have strong views about these issues. I take Ven Dhammanando’s advice that:

However, if one does want to investigate these issues, it would seem prudent to examine the historical arguments which, after all, are discussions of much the same texts that we have available to us.

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SA347 in particular is a good example of what i am talking aboult.

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Indeed! Thanks for linking those threads, i am definitely going to do a deep dive at some stage, although i thinkni am just intuitively of the Ffrankk school of thought here and always have been, so it may not be all that valuable after all.

I really just posted the original sutta because i had never noticed the feature before and had a vague recollection of the controversy.

But ultimately i am much more intersted in it as an example of the various ways buddhism"s teaching tropes on meditation evolved over time.

It is abundantly clear that the jhana trope is very old, presumably, if DN1 is to be beleived, older than the buddha, so its a nice fixing post to observe what comes after.

For example the four foundations of mindfulness are completely absemt from thw silakhandhavagga.

So if you accept the view that the prose collections took hundreds of years to reach the form they are in now, and that useful information can be gleaned from transitional sutats, mostly in MN, then there is much to be gained by a systematic survey of the occursnces of these tropes, something I am doing in another thread, which i assume has all been done before, knowing buddhism, but what the hell, im going to do it anyway :slight_smile:

The thinking and pondering thing just came up as an aside.