Thank you @Gabriel. So if that account is correct, the ordination lineage didn’t “die out”. It was squeezed out of existence by the exercise of state power and violence in multiple countries.
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That both sides of the whole issue can / will perhaps stand together, though apart… I mean not likely any decisive one way or the other resolution. (As Thanissaro points out, the “all is one” idea – Universal Philosophy / new age sentiment – wasn’t in the Buddha’s teachings.)
Just as, parallel to Coemgenu’s point above: at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies (“BCBS”, Massachusetts USA), where Analayo currently lives, the lobby features many of his books (for sale), and in the Dharma Hall lobby is a bank of shelves full of Thanissaro’s books (for free)!
[edited/afterthought]
Actually, Thanissaro B. will be at BCBS near the end of this next February for a weekend of teaching (“Skill in Questions”). I venture that if he and V. Analayo perchance met for lunch one day (or walked an alms round together in the town), they wouldn’t spend the time arguing these matters, but would share about common interests of dhamma or practice or so. They’re both, to the best of my knowledge, highly virtuous, and deep into practice. The issues of debate are earnestly engaged, but the central focus of their lives is more likely on another , more mutual plane.
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Nice to follow the legal arguments and views of various people, but ultimately this is an issue of human rights (for women, to be able to join the sangha with full ordination) and a matter of benefit to society (having women as bhikkhunis is a great blessing to any society). The cat is already out of the bag in Thailand and Sri Lanka where there is a small but flourishing bhikkhuni order. This will not be stopped or reversed. In Sri Lanka, the bhikkhunis are supported by the large majority of the lay followers, who are grateful for the opportunity to give to the bhikkhunis and to receive their blessings and teachings. It is a done deal, and although Myanmar is more resistant, the bhikkhuni order will inevitably be reestablished there as well. Any further arguments at this point are only academic. I would like to add, in answer to one of Ven. Thanissaro’s arguments, that the bhikkhunis in both Thailand and Sri Lanka now have access to teaching from older and experienced bhikkhunis who have been ordained for many years.
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This issue has led me to reflect on my response to situations in which I believe I am entitled to something and I am told, “No, you can’t have that; not now, and never, ever in the future.” My righteous fury at this “obvious” injustice gives away the game: I am totally caught up in grasping, since I must be asserting that I can’t be happy and can’t be expected to stop suffering until I have this thing in my possession. Is this not the very issue that the Buddha put at the centre of his teaching? And might it be relevant here?
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I agree, markedsell, this is wonderful, and may these bhikkhunis thrive as they serve their communities. However, as I understand it, the issue is not about whether older and more experienced bhikkhunis are available or not, but whether they have been adequately trained, not by older and more experienced bhikkhus but by awakened bhikkhus.
This sort of thinking IMO leads to guru yoga.
See here.
How long before we expect every preceptor to be a fully awakened tathāgata like some Tantric sects believe?
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Could not the same argument be leveled at the monks who obstruct the spiritual development of women? What are they grasping beneath their legalistic arguments which lack compassion? Is it some sense of entitlement?
My opinion is that this is an issue of silliness. Not trying to belittle the issue. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu should just let it be(I have much respect for him). Women 100% deserve equal rights and should, if they wish, become bhikkhunĪ. There are serious inequities in Thailand regarding legal status. Being an American I think the government should be separated entirely from religion, though.
If you think Mahāyāna are schismatic then there are no valid Theravāda bhikkunīs according to the requirements of the Pali Vinaya. This is a matter of opinion. Luang Ta Maha Bua answered a question asked in England in the 70’s on the issue of bhikkunīs and made this very point.
For me, the 227 rules and 313 rules were made unnecessary in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta. Of course there was the open question of what Buddha Gotama meant by not needing the “minor rules.” To me it’s obvious. Dasa Sikkhāpadāni. The Ten Precepts. Everything else is minor except for false claims of supernatural powers. So maybe it’s eleven precepts. Just my opinion.
Ordination is a ceremony and there is nothing magical about it. It’s not saddhamma. For a very long time it was the only way to become fully immersed in the saddhamma and learn it. Transmission of the dhamma isn’t limited to an initiated few anymore.
This should be a non-issue. Let the Theravāda bhikkunīs be. If you are offended by them or don’t recognize them you should re-examine your own practice. The 227 & 313 rules have been obsolete for 2,500 years anyway.
Remember there were virtually no monastic rules for the first twenty years of Gotama’s sāsana. Food for thought.
Much metta.
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I will try to address several responses to my post simultaneously, to save all of us time and effort. I will also try to keep my responses really simple, appealing to common sense rather than clever books, because as you can see that has led absolutely nowhere in this conversation.
- Regarding the fear of falling into guru yoga: As a general practice one must of course have some reservations about guru yoga, because gurus may declare themselves as awakenened - whether sincerely or mistakenly - and students who come to them will either be helped or disappointed, as the case may be. This could be why Thanissaro Bhikkhu is perhaps not being simply silly about this matter. Might it not be that he truly wants to ensure that bhikkhunis receive skillful teaching?
- This is why it may be seen as compassionate NOT to allow unilateral ordination. Compassion is a beautiful quality, but sometimes it can also wielded as a weapon in spiritual circles to do away with any opposition by making one’s opponent seem less worthy. It seems to me that a careful searching of the heart is needed to discern one’s motives when this quality is appealed to. (I am making no personal comment about “Ocean” here).
- Once we assert “rights” we enter impossible territory in the sense that such rights are endlessly debated, and have been, throughout the course of history. It is, of course, a noble attempt to be fair to people but it seems to me essentially misguided because all people are not created equal, however much we assert that we want this to be so. Some are tall and some are short, some are intelligent and others less so, some are physically or personally attractive and others not, and so on. That being so, some people are going to awaken before others (for example, J. Krishnamurti and Ramana Maharshi were early starters) and surely the seeker would want to consult with someone who has awakened rather than someone who merely has monastic seniority? No reasonable person would want to go to a surgeon simply because they are older (and for some reason I can’t fathom, therefore considered to be “more experienced” – they could simply have become more experienced in their own ineptitude or ignorance) when you could go to a younger surgeon who is exceptionally talented?
But the broader point I was making was that when I can’t get what I insist I must have to make me happy, true dharma practice begins for me, and it consists in owning up to my stubborn clinging and exploring ways to let go of it. THAT’s where the rubber hits the road, not in fighting for my imagined “rights” but to start dropping that mind-created poison. Amen.
Futher to the issue of compassion in this context:
There is an instructive incident in the Buddha’s life which explores this matter. In the Kakacupama Sutta (MN21.1-6) the story is told of the monk Moliya Phagguna who was said to be “associating overmuch with bhikkhunis.” He seemed to think of himself as their protector, since when anyone spoke negatively of the nuns he would become upset, and he would defend them, even to the point of bringing a case on their behalf with the sangha’s court. Futhermore, if anyone would criticize Moliya Phagguna in the presence of the bhikkhunis they would become angry and even take the matter as far as the court. So, obviously they considered Phagguna to be a good man who was taking to heart the sufferings of those who were less fortunate than himself, given the lower status of women in the society of the day.
The Buddha questioned Phagguna about the matter, and Phagguna agreed that what was reported was indeed the case. So the Buddha gave this startling advice:
“Phagguna, it is not proper for you, a clansman gone forth out of faith from the home life into homelessness, to associate overmuch with bhikkhunis. Therefore, if anyone speaks dispraise of those bhikkhunis in your presence, you should abandon any desires and any thoughts based on the household life. And herein you should train thus: ‘My mind will be unaffected, and I shall utter no evil words; I shall abide compassionate for his [the detractor’s] welfare, with a mind of loving-kindness, without inner hate.’ That is how you should train, Phagguna.”
The Buddha continues: “If anyone gives those bhikkunis a blow with his hand, with a clod, with stick, or with a knife in your presence, you should abandon any desires and any thoughts based on the household life. And herein…[as above].”
But the Buddha goes even further: “If anyone gives you a blow with his hand, with a clod, with stick, or with a knife in your presence, you should abandon any desires and any thoughts based on the household life. And herein…[as above].” (MN21.6)
So here is an example of an obviously well-intentioned individual who was merely trying to protect the less fortunate; yet the Buddha’s advice relates not to his conduct, but only to his mind-set. Why?
My view is that this emphasis on keeping the mind at peace – that is, an internal focus – rather than focusing on externally “helpful,” “compassionate” or “socially responsible” conduct was aimed at helping the student to become more mindful of his motives. Put simply, is he “helping” others so that the world might become a better, more peaceful place for himself? Is he doing it for some praise or some sense of self-satisfaction? If so, is the ego is not being reinforced by the apparently morally admirable action?
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I agree that the conception of rights is problematic in this context. Nobody has a human right to become a Theravāda nun. But, by the same token, nobody has a human right to become a Theravāda monk. These categories of monk and nun can only exist by virtue of the freely given generosity of people who are not monks and not nuns. I would suggest that it is up to the latter to determine what kinds of communities they want to support, and what kinds of disciplinary rules they think are wholesome and worth respecting.
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Have you met any such people? I personally have doubts that I have, even though I have met my share of seemingly peaceful and well-trained monks. Just like the housewife Vedehikā in the you cite, someone who is to all appearances very peaceful and well-composed in a life organized around a predictable way of life and the habits cultivated for living that predictable life might turn out to have a number of lingering attachments and emotional defilements when pushed into unanticipated circumstances.
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I have met dozens via the Internet, but alas not amongst Buddhists, unless they are unusually reluctant to admit to their awakening, which upon reading a recent article by Jack Kornfield, I thought might be the case, at least for a small number.
But in general it seems to me these people are to be found among those who are pursuing the nondual path rather than Buddhism. Makes me wonder if Buddhism hasn’t perhaps lost its power to guide others in its particular ways? I sometimes think of it as an ancient galleon, encrusted with centuries’ accumulation of barnacles on its underside, wallowing its way along somewhat directionlessly. I feel a sadness for it, but perhaps its has served its duty honorably for long enough and has to give way to new ways of doing things. But it is a truly grand old dame 
I would like to suggest that, unless one is awakened oneself, it is not possible to know who is actually awakened among those who profess to be awakened, or among those who appear to be awakened, or among those who exhibit patterns of speech and behavior that conform to one’s personal model of what it means to be awakened. Simply “taking a good game” about enlightenment on the Internet isn’t compelling evidence.
For that matter, it might not even be possible for those who are awakened to infallibly judge the matter, since being awakened does not entail omniscience or telepathic mind reading powers.
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On Bhikkhunī Ordination by Bhikkhu Analayo: An Interview with Bhante Kusala
A good short interview article published Friday.
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The motives of monks blocking the higher ordination of nuns are questionable. I am encouraged by the work of Sangha who are working to reduce inequality. We will have to agree to disagree and follow our separate ways.
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Ocean, my heart is with the nuns, big time, but my head is almost persuaded by Thanissaro’s arguments, so I would like to say what you say to my heart and head but I have to live with both of them, no separate ways here. So, we shall see…
I think it doesn’t matter what Ajhan Thanissaro thinks though I have much respect for the studies he has carried out.
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The monk and exellent teacher, like the other Ajahn’s , has to kiss their mothers ass, and I suggest we all do the same.
Mother is boss, period! 
vikingyogipolarbear