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A Trojan horse: thanissaro bhikkhus response to Analayo


#21

I was under the impression that there was institutionalized opposition to nuns, and that monks were discouraging laypeople from seeing them or supporting them. Maybe I have been fed a false narrative, though.

Perhaps I have a dated notion of the piety of the laypeople in these nations.


#22

I think there were some threats but when they saw Bhikkhuni’s weren’t trying to replace them the threat subsided. However the battle is not over. It’s better to vote with one’s feet.


#23

There is, but it is changing, and the underlying fact is that the institutions are weak, and everyone knows it. In practice, it is mostly fine, except for the final fact of legal recognition, which would accord to bhikkhunis equal rights for things like health care, travel assistance, education, and so on. The human cost of discrimination is borne in the bodies of women.


#24

There are other priorities currently. Sr Lanka is going through a crisis of leadership and a broader crisis of how the electors reflect their elected in office.

Highest rates of literacy but little abstract or moral thought goes on and the issue with Buddhism is nothing can change, as what was from the past is great and there’s no further thinking that is progressive.


#25

It’s too painful for me to read Ven. Thanissaro’s full article. If it were shorter I’d probably take the trouble to read it, but the way it is I just can’t.

What I think is that there is no value anyway in trying to analyse and refute each of his arguments; that would only lead to an escalation of hairsplitting! Maybe the approach should rather be to show the world that Bhikkhunis aren’t bad, but have a lot to offer.

I fully agree!


#26

Nah. Then they would simply have decided the Dharmagupta sravakayana lineage itself to be invalid. Misogynists going to misogynize. People in power will find whatever excuse to hold on to their power.


#27

I could not read the essay either. It put me to sleep. And then I had a nightmare.

For those needing it, here is some aspirin that I took:

Nine methods to get rid of resentment.

And may the love and kindness I have once seen in Thanissaro Bhikkhu’s heart grow and grow to enfold us all. Gender is empty.

:heartbeat:
:pray:


#28

I am pretty much done reading his articles on the subject. Been there, done that. Our focus should be on supporting the nuns, withdrawing support from monks who don’t support nuns, and convincing the Sri Lankan and Thai states to legally recognize their nuns.

For state recognition, though, this issue may need to be resolved: Women Representation in Parliaments in Asia


#29

The choice of title for the essay is telling

Might I suggest an alternative


#30

:rofl: :white_check_mark:


#31

I just want to share my opinion as some one who doesn’t take a side. Well i am on no-bodies side but my own. I just want to close my eyes in the end without fear or doubt.

From what i understand in this dhamma vinaya it doesnt matter how great you think your cause is if you are angry you are WRONG. How else do you understand the simile of the saw?

Frankly speaking i am disgusted by both sides. Doesnt the vinaya have some way of settling disputes among the sangha without bickering in the public sphere ?


#32

We can make up our own minds thank you very much.


#33

First (in regard to your first post), I would like to point out that you posted the first angry post on this thread.

Second (in regard to your second post), I would like to apologize, you are right, that was a colonial attitude on my part to say how you should govern yourselves. What I should have said is, support the Sri Lankan and Thai nuns in their efforts for recognition.


#34

There’s no special provisions for the Bhikkhu’s ordination to be reinstated either. So his argument holds no validity. In any case he’s taking a certain stance and that is his karma!


#35

imho people should actually read both papers carefully to point out the logical fallacies therein rather than getting triggered. When people dismiss what is seemingly a well thought through argument without pointing out the fallacies as have been done ITT their claims remain unsubstantiated and can turn out to be false. I must assume that the person who makes such claims simply lacks the intellectual capacity and or the motivation to make a comprehensive analysis.

I would hope that people would take great care to study the topic at hand most carefully because of the far reaching implications of the criticism therein.

I will probably see how this plays out and wait for round 2 responses before studying the material myself.


#36

I confess to seeing a thicket and go on my way.


#37

I sense the motivation underlying the thicket.


#38

Angry? you mean the word disgusted ? Let me change it then to disillusioned.


#39

Yes, he mentions that an aspirant for ordination is to live with the mentor, to allow for sustained, close observation, from both sides, of the behavior and character of living the Dhamma. But bhikkhus can’t live with women.


#40

I guess this is just more legal stuff. Makes one wonder how the bhikkhunī ordination came about in the first place if this is an absolute requirement? Any exceptions to this rule? What happens if the mentor suddenly dies immediately after the ordination ceremony? What is the forfeit of breaking the rule? Is the ordination still legally valid? What happened in the early days of the bhikkhuni Sangha? God-damn-it, I didn’t want to get trapped in the legalise. When will I learn.