About mind/citta that “knows” without using the viññāṇa of the 6 senses

Thanks.

The word “sub-conscious” as used in current psychological contexts does not appear in the suttas, AFAIK. The commentaries and Abhidhamma offer statements that might align with this.
In either case, in the suttas, any consciousness, past, present and future, according to the Buddha, is impermanent, dukkha, and not-self, as in MN22.

We’re not in agreement on a number of the bullet-points you listed and a number of the terms are abstract and open to interpretation.
However, we agree that:

But at the same time,

Again, “truly existing” has to be understood and defined in the context of the Dhamma and within different contexts of the teachings.

Just because there is no fundamental essence or soul to anything doesn’t mean dukkha doesn’t exist, for example. Dukkha is clearly experienced, and in that way exists – otherwise the 1st NT would be wrong, (and I’m saying you’re claiming this, just offering this to make the point).

Should a Buddhist physician say, “There’s no truly existing person and no truly existing pneumonia, so there’s no need to offer a not-truly existing treatment?”

:pray:

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Yes, I know that you see my words and the conception comes that I deny the experience, but I am also hopeful that you are coming around that I don’t so deny, even though my words seem to suggest as much. Dukkha is indeed experienced and does indeed exist. When I say it doesn’t truly exist it isn’t to refute its existence nor the experience of its existence. The experience and existence exists but they are not saccato thetato in the Teacher’s words.

As Venerable Sunyo recently said (I’m paraphrasing) it is precisely because they are not saccato thetato that we can let go of them and thereby find an escape from the knowing/knower/known.

:pray:

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Thanks for clarifying. :pray:

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The six sense fields cannot arise without consciousness. In the absence of that consciousness, there is a lack of contact. That lack of contact is known via direct knowledge. It exists as a bare relationship between emptiness and the Self.

However, and this would be my argument, cessation of perception and feeling is a dimension into which beings are reborn. As the highest possible attainment, it is the far limit to what the Self can experience.

The Self is acquired in three ways. By gross material form, by the mind made element, or by the formless element. That is how the Self perpetuates its existence through Samsara. It isn’t the case that the Self is a false idea.

It is only after extinguishing the Self that one is able to assert, “all phenomena are not-Self”.

The Self is extremely real. And the Self is extinguished in one way, by contact with the unconditioned. That is the difference between all of the attainments and Nibbana.

My understanding is that there is a bare relationship between mind/sense objects and faculties like perception and knowledge. Ordinarily, consciousness mediates the “gap” in between those mind/sense objects.

But, my understanding is that “red” (for example) exists independently of the knower. And infinite space would as well. And, admittedly, consciousness bridges the gap between knowledge and knower.

With cessation attainments, however, consciousness has ceased. I think we agree on that.

For me, it’s like a glass jar full of water. If you pour out the water, then you still have a glass jar - albeit an empty glass jar. Whereas when it is full of water, it contacts water - where it is empty, the contours of the jar exist on opposite sides in a bare, empty relationship. We recognize it as “empty space”. When the subject is a sentient being and the “water” is consciousness, that empty inherent relationship is just “knowledge”.

I’m suggesting that there are states of discernment which don’t rely on consciousness. As in the way a jar “understands” if it is full or empty.

Well. We’ll have to disagree. I don’t see any remnant of consciousness in nothingness. I think the word “nothingness” speaks for itself. “Consciousness” is. Nothingness isn’t. There’s no room, IMO, for consciousness in nothingness.

But, if we’re appealing to subtler and subtler states of consciousness, then I could just as easily assert the existence of an even subtler state of consciousness which exists beyond perception. I have no need to. The relationship between total cessation of perception, feeling and knowledge of that release is a bare and empty one.

It can be compared to a universe with no beings in it. It exists as a pure empty relationship to itself.

Absolutely! Consciousness is the cause for the aggregates to cling. In cessation of perception and feeling, there is no contact between the aggregates. Thus, one exists in an empty relationship to the aggregates and the world at large. It’s that empty relationship which is fundamentally “knowable”. In that sense, it’s also extremely profound. To exist as a point of reference and to have experienced the unbinding of the being from the body in a state of purified and untouched power. That is how the cessation attainment has meaning. To negate the appreciation for that state by implicating it with unconsciousness is to render it useless.

Sure. But we also have:

When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

That is the volition I’m referring to.

I cannot make heads or tails of this. What is this direct knowledge? Does it depend upon anything? Does it just exist independently?

What is a bare relationship? Does emptiness and the self here exist independently of each other? Is the bare relationship dependent upon this self and emptiness?

This looks to me like a huge rube goldberg pile of conceptions that isn’t attested in the suttas from what I can tell. It is good to try and make sense of things, but I wouldn’t hold on too dearly to this machine of conceptions. Good luck!

:pray:

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Agree.

and

I have no idea what you mean or how this applies to the teachings in the suttas. What Self?
It’s all processes.

This is what the Buddha referred to the wrong view of annihilationism. As per Ven. Sujato:

Meanwhile,

Except there’s fundamentally no being to unbind. There’s only dukkha and the temporary or final cessation of dukkha.

But that’s not what the suutas says.
Your use of volition here is an addition. The sutta points to combinations of selfless conditions arising and ceasing leading into and out of this state.

As I see it, the knowledge refers to an irreducible state of affairs. It depends on non-grasping. It exists independent of grasping.

These are all descriptive devices. Think of a glass jar full of water. If you pour it out then the jar is empty but the contours of the jar share a “bare” relationship - that being one of empty space. In the case of sentient being it is the existence of the Self in an irreducible sense. That self can be extinguished, but that Self in that unadulterated knowledge can not be escaped by any further attainment. It is the penultimate peak of perception.

Well. You seem to think I’ve cooked all of this up in my mind. “Hammered it out with logic”? The degree to which I can explain it in various ways isn’t a result of the acquisition of ideas, however.

There are degrees to which the mind can suffer - having been afflicted with a closed consciousness for three months, four years, or even seven years. Consciousness is an affliction. It clings to itself.

Having emerged from the affliction, a purified state of awareness is all that remains; with no contact existing between the khandas.

It is rare to find someone who’s been afflicted by the four year grip of consciousness. Rarer still to find someone who’s been afflicted by the seven year grip of consciousness. Of those who emerge from the grip of consciousness, if after seven years one hasn’t yet been released, one is not likely to emerge at all.

Does this knowledge exist independent of a knower? Does it exist independent of what is known by this knowledge? How can you have knowledge without a knower and a known? Do the knower and the known also refer to, “irreducible states of affairs?” :pray:

There’s likely more we agree on, but we’ll get to that later.

Really? The analogy of the jar doesn’t even hit home? Well … look … there are only so many ways I can explain my self.

What Self? Please see the below.

"Potthapada, there are these three acquisitions of a self: the gross acquisition of a self, the mind-made acquisition of a self, and the formless acquisition of a self. [9] And what is the gross acquisition of a self? Possessed of form, made up of the four great existents, feeding on physical food: this is the gross acquisition of a self. And what is the mind-made acquisition of a self? Possessed of form, mind-made, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties: this is the mind-made acquisition of a self. And what is the formless acquisition of a self? Formless and made of perception: this is the formless acquisition of a self.

Well … maybe on a fundamental level that’s true. On a working level the Self is not just a mirage. It’s also a kammic storehouse. “The body … that is called “old kamma”.”

Well yes. The sutta doesn’t explicitly state that, with the initial reappearance of the mental fabrication, then there is also the reappearance of the volition. I’m just assuming that volition is a part of the mental fabrication.

And sure. You’ve got me “wiggling” here because I stated that emergence is initiated by volition. You’ve shown that an Arahant doesn’t form the view “I will emerge. Or I am emerging. Or I have emerged.”

However, I’m stating that with emergence, volition is first to arise, then consciousness of the mind-made body, then perception and feeling of the body, and finally the physcial body itself.

You’ve kind of got to get really far out there to see just how immaterial one is able to get. We’re taking really immaterial in terms of existence. Not just formless. Immaterial!!!

Know what I mean :wink:

They’re one and the same.

“Known”; “Knowing”; “Knower” - all immaterial attainment.

Yes! :smiley:

Sounds like you’ve found yourself a self (pun intended) :joy: :pray:

Yeh, I think we should. The Mahakapāṭihāriyasutta (SN 41.4) is so delightful and fascinating for me. I practice throwing flames through my keyhole at least once a week. You don’t really get to know how he does it, but myself I point with my finger. I spin around and point in a slashing SHAZAAAM motion. Flames.

Didn’t even know I was looking for it! :joy:

I’m a mind reader my self :smirk: wish I could turn it off some times. :joy: Either that or Mara’s having a field day :person_shrugging:

Namo Buddhaya!

It’s absurd if you put it like this but this is not in the texts.

I’ll ask three times

You say the transcending of the perception based on viññāṇañcāyatanadhātu there is described as vinnananirodha?

You say the transcending of the perception based on viññāṇañcāyatanadhātu there is described as vinnananirodha?

You say the transcending of the perception based on viññāṇañcāyatanadhātu there is described as vinnananirodha?

I say: It is never in the texts described thus and you made up this expression.

It obviously can’t be described as vinnananirodha because these are feeling states, feeling is conjoined with consciousness.

Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] ‘Infinite consciousness,’ Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, ‘So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.’ He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that ‘There is a further escape,’ and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] ‘There is nothing,’ Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, ‘So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.’ He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that ‘There is a further escape,’ and pursuing it there really was for him.

The factors by which these states come into play i’ve bolded out, as you can see there is no cessation of what is called mind, consciousness or intellect, manocittavinnana; the difference is in ideation that there then is.

That perception based on viññāṇañcāyatanadhātu is described as base of consciousness but it’s transcendence based on the ‘perception of nothingness’ is no more ‘a transcending of consciousness’ than the ‘attainment of neither-perception-nor-non-perception’ being a transcendence of ‘nothing’, these are feeling ayatanas and they are a “dimming down” of percipience until it’s transcendence based on the asankhatanibbananirodhadhatu.

As to why the viññāṇañcāyatanadhātu is called thus.

Well what else would you call a feeling state where you cognize neither form, nor space, nor what you rather apprehend as ‘there is nothing’ or ‘neither-perception-nor-non-perception’, but you still cognize?

One can call it whatever but the old called it thus, and i assume that that is how one would apprehend it

What happens when I don’t answer?

Could you quote the excerpt you draw from?

Ah. You’re no fun. Does my head crack into seven pieces?

No. I say the transcendending of infinite consciousness is ākiñcaññāyatanadhātu. I haven’t described it as “consciousness cessation”.

The texts say, however, that the perception of infinite consciousness ceases when ākiñcaññāyatanadhātu arises. Please see below:

"And then, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [thinking,] ‘There is nothing,’ enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. His earlier perception of a refined truth of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness ceases and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of the dimension of nothingness. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of the dimension of nothingness. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases. [2]

I don’t see how anyone can argue that one is “conscious” of nothingness in any ordinary sense of the word.

I’ll happily subscribe to nothingness-consciousness, but I’m less inclined to belief that nothingness is a species of ordinary consciousness. It’s simply beyond the scope of ordinary consciousness.

Well I’m sorry for your confusion. I meant exactly what the texts say.

Yep :slight_smile: well … I encourage you to adopt a view on nothingness that ascribes regular consciousness to the attainment, whilst still staying true to the experience.

I disagree. I see it as an ascension through vastly separated dimensions which don’t overlap.

That’s one way of approaching it. The other is to think “there is nothing”.

This was a typing error which has been corrected.
Should say, “Neither this Sutta, nor any other ones., “

Thanks.

On a general note,

The words ‘knowing & discernment’, as well as the term’consciousness’ and the group of words referred to as nama [namely; perception, feeling, intention, attention, contact] generally describe the constructed element.

I boldened feeling because buddha says

Now it’s possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, ‘Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?’ When they say that, they are to be told, ‘It’s not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.’"

He methodically extends the scope of referable here as to describe a special case of the unconstructed.

Notice that words like ‘knowing’, ‘discernment’, ‘pleasure’ can be mixed up in the same way by inference but one shouldn’t do this for words like perception, consciousness, name & form, and other words which are ‘taken’ in that they are used to explicitly describe what ceases in how the attainments are named & explained.

Another point is that these descriptions are made only in as far as the faculties remain based on life-force and the cessation of life force doesn’t change what is described.

In other words we shouldn’t describe parinibbaba as a meditative attainment which one enters into & discerns even by the ‘extended method’ (eg pleasure not felt) like one would do in describing the meditative attainment of cessation of perception & feeling, an eternalist would find a way to do this, but both of these extinguishments are principially the exact same ayatana.

It’s different to sensory percipience in that is exactly the same ayatana.

For example you can look at the same wall and every day ‘see the same thing’ or you could enter into & emerge from attainment of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and ‘see the same thing’ everytime but this is a generalization because the seeing that was ceased and new seeing arose, much similar but a new construct in each case.

The ayatana where no change is discerned is different in that it is the exact same principle of cessation everytime. It doesn’t matter when, where, who, whether described as parinibbana or as attaining cessation of perception & feeling, it doesn’t matter how it comes into play - it is the exact same referent.

It’d be impossible for something constructed to be like this. It’d be as if two people could see with one eye or if a person was able to relive an experience from his own or another man’s past.

You can maybe from this infer how absurd any notion of identity is at that point.