Ajahn Chah quote about the mind being already peaceful

[Adutiya]

In the Dhp 154 topic, Venerable Sunyo said:

@Sunyo

Ah, yes, we find that explanation in some commentarial works, like the Milindapanha, I believe. It compares nibbana to a mountain or city, which is already there before you reach it.

In my view, it doesn’t really work, however. In the early texts nibbana is explained as the cessation of the defilements. This is not something that already pre-exists, in an unconditioned form.

This reminded me of a quote attributed to Ajahn Chah that I read many years ago. It’s a quote that never quite sat well with me and I’ve wondered if it is an actual Ajahn Chah quote.

Within itself, the mind is already peaceful. But the mind is not peaceful these days because it follows moods, becomes agitated because moods deceive it. Sense impressions come and trick the mind into unhappiness, suffering, gladness and sorrow. But the mind’s true nature is none of these things. Gladness or sadness is not the mind but only a mood coming to deceive us. The untrained mind gets lost and follows them. It forgets itself and then we think that it is we who are upset or at ease or whatever. But really, this mind of ours is already unmoving and peaceful, really peaceful. So we must train the mind to know these sense impressions and not get lost in them. Just this is the aim of all of this difficult practice that we put ourselves through.

Just as nibanna does not already pre-exist, how could the mind already be “within itself, already unmoving and peaceful”?

[Dan]

@Adutiya

ust as nibanna does not already pre-exist, how could the mind already be “within itself, already unmoving and peaceful”?

Maybe he could be talking by way of attribute or property, rather than by way of ontics or substance.

[Snowbird]

I think often AN1.49-50 is offered in support of this.

[Adutiya]

Yes, but does AN 1.49 necessarily say that the mind was already radiant but then became corrupted?

[Jasudho]

Ven. Analayo wrote an essay on how these lines in AN1.49-50 are likely corrupted and Ven. Sujato wrote how they’re related to jhana, not to an original pure mind, (not sure which thread; can be accessed via the Search function).

luminousmind.pdf

[LucasOliveira]

When the Buddha says “Radiant,” is he referring to the mind in a Realm of existence?

“There comes a time, bhikkhus, when after the lapse of a long period this world contracts (disintegrates). While the world is contracting, beings for the most part are reborn in the Ābhassara Brahma-world. There they dwell, mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And they continue thus for a long, long period of time.

SuttaCentral

(17) Devas of Streaming Radiance (abhassara deva)
The Thirty-one Planes of Existence

Your question, @Adutiya, also reminds me of the question of the origin of the world, which the Buddha says is unthinkable.

Unthinkable
Acinteyyasutta AN 4.77
SuttaCentral

[Brahmali]

@Adutiya

Just as nibanna does not already pre-exist, how could the mind already be “within itself, already unmoving and peaceful”?

On the face of it, it’s hard to know what he may have meant by this, but I don’t think there is anything here that cannot be understood in line with the Dhamma. To get better idea of what he may have meant, one would have to consider his teachings overall, and then interpret this passages in light of the overall message. In fact, this is the appropriate approach even with the suttas. The difference is that with lesser teachers the uncertainties are bound to be much greater, which means that interpreting them is going to be more difficult.

[Pasanna]

For anyone wanting to go down a luminous mind rabbit hole, we’ve done this before:

Does the "luminous mind" debate carry any significance for those of us who are not yet anagamis?

Hi @1hullofaguy When i read Maha Boowa descriptions of his practice and experiences in the book arahattamagga/phala i belief he talks like someone ho had really seen and experienced all these things. He does not refer to some theory, i belief, but he talks from his own experiences. He talks about the citta who knows when it is calm, the citta who knows when the awarenress of body and world disappear. That kind of things, apparantly, do not stay unknown to the citta. I see no reason to think t…

and

Bhikkhu Anālayo: "The Luminous Mind in Theravāda and Dharmaguptaka Discourses"

The idea of an intrinsically “luminous” mind is quite common in many Buddhist traditions. Within the Theravāda tradition, a short discourse in the Aṅguttara-nikāya is usually brought up in reference to this. Bhikkhu Sujato has already discussed these passages in a blog post titled “On the radiant mind” suggesting that it is a reference to samādhi (to the consternation of most of the commenters, it seems). A 2017 paper by Bhikkhu Anālayo titled “The Luminous Mind in Theravāda and Dharmaguptaka…

However, I’m going to take a different approach to this.

If we just think of the mind as another sense door then this could make sense. Is your ear inherently peaceful, sure. Does that make it some everlasting permanent essense thing? Nah, not really. When there are sounds, consciousness and contact the ear is disturbed and the little ear receptors vibrate. Could it be that the same is true for thoughts, consciousness and contact and the mind? It seems so. And unlike the 5 external senses, impingement is far more determined by volition.

This is a bit of a stab in the dark, but seems to align with what the Venerable is saying.

[Adutiya]

Thank you all for your comments! It wasn’t a burning question for me, but I’ve thought about it for a long time and wanted to hear what others thought about it. I think all of the comments together settled it for me.