You didn’t tell me that I understood you wrongly so I assume that I understood you correctly. And that, you (and the Ajahns that you mentioned) have confirmed the following:
“pure citta” and “Nibbana” are the same.
You have chance here the 3rd times to correct me if I understood you wrongly. Otherwise, please confirm this statement from your side.
I emphasize here: I don’t have any trouble with assigning or labelling “Nibbana” with another label like “X” or “Y” or “A”, etc. The only requirement is: this labelling must be consistent, that means, “X” (or “Y” or “A”) must have the same characteristics as Nibbana and its relationship to other dhamma.
This quote gives rise to another word: “pure mind”
This quote prefers to label it as “whatever name” or “primal mind”, “genuine mind”, “old mind”, “new mind”, etc.
As I said above about not having any concern of different labels of “Nibbana”, what I am concern about is the correct description of “Nibbana” (or whatever label we are using).
So, if you are not sure those labels (pure citta, pure mind, primal mind, genuine mind, old mind, new mind, whatever, etc.) are the same as “Nibbana”, please say so and explain about why you are “not sure”.
If you think they are not the same as “Nibbana”, please say so and explain why they are not the same.
If you think they are not the same as “Nibbana”, but can’t be explained, please say so.
Finally, if you think they are the same as “Nibbana”, please say so. (You don’t need to further explain because all your posts so far seem to me that they are pointing to this statement. I only need your confirmation to continue with this discussion).
You can draw the inference that “pure Citta” and “Nibbana” are the same if you wish to. I am simply stating what the followers of Ajahn Mun taught. My own view does not matter.
In Establishing the Fundamentals, this is what Ajahn Maha Boowa says:
While the Kilesas still rule the roost, any bright luminosity that there is in the
Citta can’t be discovered completely until you actually get down there and
obliteration happens. There has to be some level of obscurity and dullness
there constantly. This murkiness is the Kilesas. They conceal and shroud that
knowing Citta, preventing it from knowing all there is to know.
Now, when these things came under investigation to the extent that Avijjā (that
which is the most refined and delicate shroud) was reached and obliterated,
the Citta shone forth a bright luminosity. That is, it was like heaven and earth
subsiding. Avijjā separated from the heart.
At that time, knowledge sprang up with all its might because there was no
longer anything to conceal it. There was no such thing as dullness. Dullness is
for the Kilesas. As soon as the shroud of the Kilesas has been completely
lifted, there is nothing to conceal [this knowledge]. Dullness is nowhere to be
found.
This is what is meant by Āloko Udapādi. A bright luminosity arose and there
was no need to confirm this with anyone. In the end, all I can say is Sādhu!
There would be no need to confirm this with the Lord Buddha even if He was
sitting in front of us. It’s the same Dhamma. Sandiṭṭhiko. Its announcement
already reverberates throughout Lokadhātu. It lets you know and understand
for yourself. He taught so that we could know for ourselves. When we know
for ourselves, what would we turn around to ask Him about? If you had to do
that, Sandiṭṭhiko would be meaningless.
When you do actually get there you have the realisation, “Oh, okay. That’s
what it is!” It’s an immediate realisation.
When you reach this level, you’ve reached Dhammadhātu.
The Lord Buddha is Dhammadhātu. He is entirely Dhammadhātu.
How extensive is Dhammadhātu? It is as vast as the ocean which is the
delivery point for the water from all the various rivers. All the river water that
flows cumulates there; it’s transformed into the ocean. Now, how extensive is
that?
Those who, through their own efforts, have reached the ultimate state of
pristine purity, their Cittas are Dhammadhātu. They are one and the same.
However much this extends to the Lord Buddha, what would there be to
question Him about? There is no past and no future. The Lord Buddha
reaching Nibbāna so many years and months ago – there’s none of this. There
is only Dhammadhātu.
You may think that these teachers don’t know what they are talking about, or you may not like the way they explain Dhamma. I cannot fix that. All I can do is to accurately present what they taught and hope that some people benefit from this. You are free to draw your own conclusions. I do implore you not to get hung up on the words used and instead focus on having these experience for yourself.
No one in this thread appears to doubt the necessity of direct experience – it’s the interpretations and expressions that are offered about such direct experiences that fuel these debates and discussions.
From DN1 in the sections on wrong views:
"‘That which is called “the eye” or “the ear” or “the nose” or “the tongue” or “the body”: that self is impermanent, not lasting, transient, perishable.
That which is called “mind” or “sentience” or “consciousness”: that self is permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, remaining the same for all eternity.’ Yañca kho idaṁ vuccati cittanti vā manoti vā viññāṇanti vā ayaṁ attā nicco dhuvo sassato avipariṇāmadhammo sassatisamaṁ tatheva ṭhassatī’ti.
However they may be translated, note the use of all terms for “mind” in the above teaching, pointing to any aspect of mind/consciousness/knowing being unchanging and imperishable as a wrong view, however subtle the “experience” may be.
This view appears to be identical to the description(s)/experiences of “pure citta” and “knowing” you’ve expressed in this thread. But if not, perhaps you could clarify how they are different, as I don’t wish to misrepresent what you’ve written.
For many, imo, this topic is not about getting caught up in words and notions, but rather is about clarifying Right View and the teachings as we have them in the suttas.
I think you have entirely missed the point. The use of the Pali terms in this context is entirely consistent with what the Thai teachers taught. I am not going to repeat myself, so maybe you could read some of their translated material to gain a better understanding.
Up to now, I have been reluctant to insert a personal view into this thread. Instead, I have tried to simply repeat what the Thai teachers taught in their own words. As I don’t recall Luang Pu Tate saying directly that the “pure Citta” is Nibbana, and I know of no such quote, I have not confirmed anything other than his description of the pure Citta as Nibbana-Dhatu. To my knowledge, this is the closest the Luang Pu gets to saying the two are synonymous. In my view, this is him saying the two are synonymous.
I thought that Luang Ta Maha Boowa had made such a statement but I could not find the quote. Now I have found it:
This is how to deal with this most subtle sort of defilement hiding out in the heart. Hit them hard with the truth of impermanence, suffering and not-self, because these defilements are the essence of sammuti — all our suppositions about the world. They must be crushed and dispersed from the heart, and then we’ll see whether the heart has also been annihilated. No, it is not destroyed. The heart has no cemetery. It is undying19 by its very nature — even when it still has defilements.
The Lord Buddha called this the complete dissolution of the defilements: “the end of danger, the quenching of the fires of greed, hatred and delusion” by the pouring of the Undying Dhamma20 elixir. With the defilements gone, only spotless purity remains. It is here in this fully purified heart that perfect happiness is to be found. All work finishes here; all projects end here. The Lord said:
"Done is the task, fulfilled is the holy life, there is no further work to do."21 All suffering ends with this right understanding.
The summit of Dhamma is found in this purified heart. The “Buddha.m- Dhamma.m- Sangha.m sarana.m gacchaami” that we repeat to reverently recollect the Lord Buddha, all gather and converge in this pure nature. Buddho, Dhammo, Sangho are exactly this pure nature. Concern with questions about the Lord Buddha’s final passing away22 in India — ‘how many centuries ago is it now?’ — will now end. The true nature of Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha will now be evident in ‘one’s own’ heart of purity. This is the heart’s priceless treasure, where the true state of things is seen and all questions settled.
Where did the Lord Buddha go when he finally passed away? The bodily aggregate certainly disintegrated following its nature — bodies being the same anywhere. However, the purified nature, Buddho, was not destroyed or annihilated for it is not confined by time or position. It is this that we refer to in “Buddha.m- Dhamma.m- Sangha.m sarana.m gacchaami”. When we can experience this for ourselves, we will be able to verify with complete certainty that this nature cannot be annihilated.
The arahant disciples understand this. Wherever they may be, they are together with Dhamma; with ‘Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha’, having constant audience with the Lord Buddha. Their minds are unshakable because the fires of desire are quenched with the waters of Dhamma. “The quelling and cessation of all conditioning factors is supreme happiness.”23 These conditioning factors are really samudaya, the source of suffering, so when this is ended all that remains is supreme happiness.
The means and the results, the good and the bad, are within all of us who are aware and care. This nature that knows is uniquely suited to all levels of Dhamma, up to and including the state of purity [24]
Please try steadily to purify this nature that knows, ridding it of all obstructions and oppressive influences. There will then be no need to make enquiries about Nibbana, for having experienced the purified heart all questions will be finally settled.
To the Last Breath, by Acharn Maha Boowa, edited by Bhikkhu Ariyesako
Note: In Thai the teachers often swap from Citta to Heart in their talks. This is not uncommon. So, in this case, a “pure heart” is the same as a “pure Citta”.
Acharn Char said,
At present, the Buddha, the real Buddha, is still living, for He is the Dhamma itself, the 'Sacca-Dhamma’. And ‘Sacca-Dhamma’ that which enables one to become Buddha, still exists. It hasn’t fled anywhere… Whoever sees the Dhamma, sees the Buddha. Whoever, sees the Buddha, sees the Dhamma.
I hope this answers all the questions on this matter.
