SuttaCentral
I have a dear friend who draws from all kinds of religions that forms his philosophy. For a while he’s been saying “All things are perfect just as they are.” which is a bizarre concept to me. What’s so perfect about greed, anger, hatred, delusion, violence, impurities, and dukkha in general?
What is the origin of this statement? Zen? Dzogchen? Mahayana? How did this come into use? What is the purpose of this statement?
It “feels” like the Tao Te Ching teaching (and by extension Taoist religion). Everything under heaven is the way …so why would we fight against it. I am not a Taoist expert in the least so maybe someone else can chime in.
It also resonates with recovery from addiction paradigms.
Zen also has that kind of flavor. I think it is a Dōgen (not the forum member @Dogen 
) quote: “Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.”
All these variants may stem from madhyamikā position of “there is no one who gets enlightened” and “Samsāra is the same as Nirvāna”. (If that is actually the position and not a mischaracterization)
Haha, @yeshe.tenley once took great pains to teach me how “Samsāra is not different from Nirvāna” (which is what Nagarjuna said) does not mean “Samsāra is the same as Nirvāna” 
I’ve never said I wasn’t him, either. 
Children and innocent animals are being abused and killed right now. Rainforests deforestated and displaced. Air being polluted. Lobsters being boiled alive. It’s a nightmare that plagues me when I’m awake. Things are not perfect, and so we have the truth of suffering. Without understanding it at least in some way progress is a delusion.
Some might read AN 6.63 to be saying much the same thing:
Greedy intention is a person’s sensual pleasure.
The world’s pretty things aren’t sensual pleasures.
Greedy intention is a person’s sensual pleasure.
The world’s pretty things stay just as they are,
but the attentive remove desire for them.
AN 6.63
When you combine that with the Teacher’s many statements on epistmology in MN 1 you might see how statements above might have come about:
A mendicant who is perfected—with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetter of continued existence, and is rightly freed through enlightenment—directly knows earth as earth. Having directly known earth as earth, they do not conceive it to be earth, they do not conceive it in earth, they do not conceive it as earth, they do not conceive that ‘earth is mine’, they do not approve earth. Why is that? Because they have completely understood it, I say.
So @adutiya maybe you could say this came about in the so-called EBT’s without invoking Zen, Dzogchen or Mahayana at all! 
I see those quotes as pointing to how the worldly things are considered pretty or perfect by uninstructed worldlings but the noble disciple sees the worldly things as just earthly things; nothing pretty, perfect or desirable about them.
What happens though if you remove the desire for things to be other than they are?
If you’ve completely given up any desire for things to be other than they are, then can’t you say in some sense that things, “are perfect just as they are?”
Which brings us back to desire vs the altruistic wish to end suffering for oneself and others. Are they the same? Different? If so, how?
Well… the altruistic wish does not lead to your affliction, nor to the affliction of others.
If I am not wrong, that wish was the motivation for Buddha becoming a teacher. If students failed or not, progressed or regressed, Buddha remained in his perfect state.
Wish, chanda, devoid of attachment, is something to be cultivated.
I agree with you that even in EBT you can hold the “all things are perfect just as they are”.
Not only restricted to that mendicant who has perfected himself, but to anyone in training.
Buddha encourages exercises as seeing the non repulsive in the repulsive and the non repulsive. If you are training yourself successfully in that, you will have the “all things are perfect just as they are” attitude. In the same way, to train successfully in that, self suggesting yourself that “all things are perfect just as they are” is going to be helpful in such practice.
This attitude does not mean you delude yourself into thinking there’s nothing more to do. It does not mean that you rejoice in the suffering of others. Or it may mean so… It depends on each individual.
Anyway, I’d suggest OP to ask his friend.
If there is no desire for things, “perfect” or any adjective is meaningless, isn’t it? You would just have to say yathābhutam, “as they are”, no need for any adjectives. I think that is what the sentiment is behind these kinds of enigmatic statements.
If a person is on the N8FP and sees things the way they really are and sees defilements in the mind, I don’t see any way that can be seen as perfect.
Perhaps the problem lies in the definition of perfect. I’m thinking it means flawless, ideal, meeting all needs and wants.
Hi Yeshe,
It depends on what is meant by “perfect”, no?
In terms of the mere appearances of “things” – one might say nothing is out of place and is therefore “perfect” in that sense. Things - cars, whales, tornadoes, people - manifest as they do from causes and conditions, so who can claim anything is out of place and imperfect in that sense?
Yet in the Nikāyas, the Buddha never states that anything conditional is “perfect” in terms of the problem of dukkha.
SN22.45:
What’s impermanent is suffering.
Yad aniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ;
Dhp278:
All conditions are suffering—
Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā”
And many more examples…
So consistent with these teachings, one could say that “All things are perfectly dukkha, just as they are.” 
And this also aligns with the Buddha’s teachings in the Nikāyas on the need to end rebirth.
If everything is all perfection without craving then why, even theoretically, should one aim for the ending of rebirth?
Just come back zillions of times and enjoy!
While this might be something attested to in some Mahayana teachings, it clearly isn’t the Buddha’s teachings in the Nikāyas.
All best
Indeed it does! And as trusolo points out describing things as perfect does seem a bit of an enigmatic statement. Some origins might come from the suttas I linked where the mendicant who has given up all desire for things to be other than they are is said to be ‘perfected.’
It might also come from the teaching of the four immeasurables which is sometimes called the ‘perfections’ in the so-called EBT’s where ‘equanimity’ is said to be a great equalizer in seeing things just as they are with no desire flowing outwards from it.
And then we might look at what ajax said noting that the Teacher remained in a perfect state whether students failed or not, progressed or regressed.
I would argue - I expect this is where we continue to disagree - that directly knowing earth as earth as in MN 1 leaves no room whatsoever for conceiving it to be dukkha or suffering. Seeing earth as dukkha might be part of the graduated training, but for a perfected one they know earth as earth without conceiving of it in any other way.
The Teacher taught that we should see the aggregates as burning chaff as part of the graduated training. However, this does not mean that the Teacher didn’t directly know the aggregates as the aggregates without any further conception of them as burning chaff.
“Mendicants, form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are burning chaff.”
SN 22.136
Just so as dukkha.
Yes, but being perfected in terms of having extinguished all the defilements doesn’t mean that “things as they are” are perfect in terms of being free of dukkha.
Also, “knowing earth as earth” etc. doesn’t mean that the experience of earth, being conditional, isn’t dukkha. It means that there is complete freedom from the dukkha of grasping, of creating more kamma, and from further rebirth – but not utterly free of all dukkha, since the senses and aggregates are still present and operating.
Again, that’s why the aim of the practice is to end rebirth — so that there’s no further engagement with, or experience of, the conditional.
Anyway, just saying…
Maybe it may help to think “perfect” as done/completed. Thus something that does not lead to any further action.
Whereas imperfect is something that is not completed, something that goes on, something that impels you to act for the sake of fixing it…
Personally, I don’t see any constructive value in cultivating a view like this. Rather, in MN 19, the Buddha divided his thoughts into two classes, rid himself of unskillful thoughts and inclined his mind towards wholesome thoughts.
Then, as I meditated—diligent, keen, and resolute—a malicious thought arose … a cruel thought arose. I understood: ‘This cruel thought has arisen in me. It leads to hurting myself, hurting others, and hurting both. It blocks wisdom, it’s on the side of distress, and it doesn’t lead to extinguishment.’ When I reflected that it leads to hurting myself … hurting others … hurting both, it went away. When I reflected that it blocks wisdom, it’s on the side of distress, and it doesn’t lead to extinguishment, it went away. So I gave up, got rid of, and eliminated any cruel thoughts that arose.<
"In the same way, I saw that unskillful qualities have the drawbacks of sordidness and corruption, and that skillful qualities have the benefit and cleansing power of renunciation.”<
He didn’t say that the unskillful thoughts were perfect.
The origin of this must have been a school of Buddhism that mixed in something from their cultural beliefs.
You haven’t given us any context, but I would say it’s a way of detaching from ideas and feelings of like and dislike. Which I believe does dovetail with Buddhist practice of detachment. There is also the reality that what we “think” is good or bad is often in hindsight and dependent on outcomes as events unfold. Something can be bad, then good, and then bad again in how we feel about at a given point in time.
Some thoughts and a perspective to consider…
Seeing things as they are, is certainly a large part of this. But for me it is linked to Equanimity and Knowledge and Vision.
I see things, not as - ‘perfect’ as they are’… but that ‘all things have to be the way they are’… there is no other way they can be, and hence while one could use the word ‘perfect’, it is a little misleading given its conventional usage. But yes, All is exactly as it should be.
Into this mix must come the knowledges of Dependent Arising and the conditioned nature of all things, including the Khandas of all Beings. This is how Kamma works. The Path is about moving towards Nibbana through the extinguishment of defilements and the cultivation of Wisdom.
The ‘bad’ actions by speech, thought and action, generate negative Kamma, and the wholesome ones, wholesome kamma. Without going through this process, one can’t perceive or harness the action of Dependent Arising, and thus recondition and purify oneself to have better rebirths or to attain Nibbana.
This is necessary because of the base condition of the Khandas for all Beings. While there is Delusion, Dependent Origination goes in a construction/becoming direction. When Delusion is destroyed, craving is destroyed and D.O. goes in the Dependent Liberation direction.
So you can see that things have to be as they are … it is an expression of the Gratification, Danger and Escape. So even being re-born in hell is needed… even the worst things are part of the process to ultimate Liberation. It can’t be any othet way.
Is this unfair? Why are Beings so stupid? Can’t they just be smarter and make wise choices? No they can’t! 
This is the way things are because of the way the Khandas operate when there is delusion… they are the manufacturers of the mirage… the house builders… the more defilements, the more unbeneficial the choices… it sustains the whole samsaric cycle. The way out is the Noble 8 fold Path, the removal of defilements and destruction of Avija. Liberation, Awakening and letting go of all the Khandas, and all construction.
So things are the way they have to be. Seeing this, there is Equanimity 
Equanimity in the face of all the suffering. First Noble Truth. Existence is Dukkha.
There is no blame or personal suffering in observing things the way they are. One sees the khandas and DA for what they are and can abide in peace. Seeing AND accepting things as they are - Equanimity. There is boundless compassion because of wisdom… and there is appreciation and gratitude for the Path to the escape.
So things are ‘perfect’, or just the way they have to be, as they are. There is nothing ‘wrong’ with this… life is not broken - this IS life… wishing for it to be otherwise is Delusion and creates an extra level of suffering. This is the reality of Samsara
May all Beings move toward Awakening and Liberation 
It makes me flinch when hearing something like that. Obviously things are not perfect the way they are. If you want to get across that things are just the way they are, why not just phrase it that way? “Perfect” means correct, unblemished, excellent in all respects.
Is samsara having a field day or what?
I think people want to get detached from seeing and sensing that the world is a friggin mess and because people don’t like feeling helpless, they create some sort of over-detachment. I don’t know your friend @Adutiya, so I don’t want to judge. I’m telling from my own experience here. I know someone who’d say such things and believe in them. But it’s more like tricking yourself into it.
That said, if I had one goal in life it would be (upekkha or ataraxia) equanimity but there’s no need to trick yourself into an “everything is perfect” -worldview.
It conflates the self sufficiency of what is with 100% Nice.