AN 5.154 difference between Pariyāpuṇāti, dhareti, and relationship to sati?

[frankk]

Here comparing Bhante @sujato draft, with Bodhi’s, I’m not clear on the fine nuances between Pariyāpuṇāti and dhareti. B.Sujato’s translation makes me think they’re synonyms, but if that were the case, I don’t think the Buddha would use 2 out of 5 slots for that.

B.Bodhi’s translation implies to me that Pariyāpuṇāti, “learning”, involves both reading and writing memory, and dhaareti, “retain in mind”, might mean either one mentally recites it at regular time intervals to make sure it stays memorized, and/or as a sati-'patthana practice (memory-establishment), one is to frequently recollect that dhamma.

As I understand it, sati means memory, and memory can either be

1. written and re-written (memorizing), or
2. read memory (recollect, remember something previously memorized)

I just think there probably is some fine distinction between those two terms (Pariyāpuṇāti, dhareti). Does anyone know for sure?

CPED and PTS

pariyāpuṇāti: learns thoroughly; masters. (pari + ā + pu + ṇā)

Pariyāpuṇāti [pari+āp, cp. BSk. paryavāpnoti Divy 613] 1. to learn (by heart), to master, to gain mastership over, to learn thoroughly Vin iv.305 (parittaŋ a charm) D i.117 (=jānāti DA i.117); A iii.86 (dhammaŋ); fut pariyāpuṇissati DhA i.382 (dhammaŋ); ger. pariyāpuṇitvā S i.176; ii.120; SnA 195 (nikāyaŋ).

AN 5.154 sujato draft

154. The Decline of the True Teaching (1st)

“Mendicants, these five things lead to the decline and disappearance of the true teaching.
What five?

1. It’s when mendicants don’t carefully listen,
2. memorize,
3. and remember the teaching.
4. They don’t carefully examine the meaning of teachings they’ve remembered.
5. And they don’t carefully practice in line with the meaning and the teaching they’ve understood.

These five things lead to the decline and disappearance of the true teaching.

These five things lead to the continuation, persistence, and enduring of the true teaching. What five? It’s when mendicants carefully listen, memorize, and remember the teaching. They carefully examine the meaning of teachings they’ve remembered. And they carefully practice in line with the meaning and the teaching they’ve understood. These five things lead to the continuation, persistence, and enduring of the true teaching.”

bodhi trans.
154 (4) Decline of the Good Dhamma (1)

703“Bhikkhus, there are these five things that lead to the decline and disappearance of the good Dhamma.
What five?
(1) Here, the bhikkhus do not respectfully listen to the Dhamma;
(2) they do not respectfully learn the Dhamma;
(3) they do not respectfully retain the Dhamma in mind;
(4) they do not respectfully examine the meaning of the teachings they have retained in mind;
(5) they do not respectfully understand the meaning and the Dhamma and then practice in accordance with the Dhamma.

These five things lead to the decline and disappearance of the good Dhamma.

154. Paṭhamasaddhammasammosasutta

“Pañcime, bhikkhave, dhammā saddhammassa sammosāya antaradhānāya saṃvattanti.
Katame pañca?

1. Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhū na sakkaccaṃ dhammaṃ suṇanti,
2. na sakkaccaṃ dhammaṃ pariyāpuṇanti,
3. na sakkaccaṃ dhammaṃ dhārenti,
4. na sakkaccaṃ dhātānaṃ dhammānaṃ atthaṃ upaparikkhanti,
5. na sakkaccaṃ atthamaññāya dhammamaññāya dhammānudhammaṃ paṭipajjanti.

Ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca dhammā saddhammassa sammosāya antaradhānāya saṃvattanti.

Pañcime, bhikkhave, dhammā saddhammassa ṭhitiyā asammosāya anantaradhānāya saṃvattanti. Katame pañca? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhū sakkaccaṃ dhammaṃ suṇanti, sakkaccaṃ dhammaṃ pariyāpuṇanti, sakkaccaṃ dhammaṃ dhārenti, sakkaccaṃ dhātānaṃ dhammānaṃ atthaṃ upaparikkhanti, sakkaccaṃ atthamaññāya dhammamaññāya dhammānudhammaṃ paṭipajjanti. Ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca dhammā saddhammassa ṭhitiyā asammosāya anantaradhānāya saṃvattantī”ti.

[SarathW1]

Pripurana and Dharana are two common words used by Sri Lanknas.
The way I understand Paripurana means the completeness. For instance many monks today learn Sutta by piecemeal not completely. Some do not like Abhidhamma etc.
Dharana means holding (retain) it in your mind.
Bhante @sujato translation is close to the way I understand it.

[sujato]

There’s a discussion of these terms here. Let me know if you still have questions!

The process of education in the EBTs

Thanks for this. I have been wondering about the precise significance of these terms myself, especially the first two. You say you prefer “memorise” to “learn” as a rendering of pariyāpuṇati, referring to my translation of this term in the origin story to bhikkhu pārājika 4. You may well be right about this, and I am quite prepared to change my translation, but first of all I would like to sort out what appears to me to be a weakness in your argument. In support of your argument that pariyāpuṇ…

@SarathW1

Pripurana and Dharana are two common words used by Sri Lanknas.

The word is pariyāpuṇāti, which is a different word than paripūraṇa.

[frankk]

@sujato

There’s a discussion of these terms here. Let me know if you still have questions!

One of the problems with the choice of translation “remember” (dhaarenti) in English is ambiguous. “remember” might mean memorize (re-write memory), or it might mean recollect (read memory).

When I posted the question, I assumed you meant, remember=memorize, which is redundant with the previous step pariyaapunaati (memorize). Now I think what you meant by remember is : remember = frequently recall to mind what one has previously memorized. But your translation is so terse, who really knows what you meant? I don’t mean that as a criticism of your translation, I just mean that “remember” is so ambiguous inherently, readers, especially English readers from different countries, may very well interpret that in many different ways.

In AN 6.29, udaayi sutta, udayi is criticized for not having properly memorized 5 things to be frequently recollected (anussatitthaanam). Buddha then asks Ananda to recite the 5 things. At the end of that the Buddha then says, and here’s a 6th item to add to the list and remember (dhareti), and a slightly different version of the S&S definition (sati and sampajano of posture awareness) is given. If we were to judge by this sutta, then dhareti would have to be both memorize and frequently recollect, since we are told the first 5 items should be frequently recollected (anusssati).

[sujato]

@frankk

“remember” (dhaarenti) in English is ambiguous. “remember” might mean memorize (re-write memory), or it might mean recollect (read memory).

I know what you mean, but I think the terms are not as ambiguous as all that. According to Miriam-Webster, memorize is;

• to commit to memory : learn by heart

And remember is:

• to bring to mind or think of again
• to keep in mind for attention or consideration
• to retain in the memory

Which is pretty much what I think the Pali terms mean.

[frankk]

@sujato

to retain in the memory

To me, “retain in memory” is synonymous with “memorizing”. Unless there’s something implied about a difference between short term and long term memory I’m not aware of.

But I understand what you are saying that “memorize” is just one way memory writing, whereas “remembering” is primarily the “reading of memory”, but also reading/writing short term memory.

There is a problem still in ambiguity with your translation because of ellision. Without the 5 numbers explicitly numbered and unellided, it very much looks like "memorize, and remember’ is being used a synonym. If you translated unellided text, and numbered the items, would break that up.

@frankk

It’s when mendicants don’t carefully listen,
memorize,
and remember the teaching.
They don’t carefully examine the meaning of teachings they’ve remembered.
And they don’t carefully practice in line with the meaning and the teaching they’ve understood.

And also look at the line after “remember the teaching”. It refers to “teachings they’ve remembered”, which to me is synonymous with “teachings they’ve memorized”.

Sorry for being nuissance, I know you must have a million more importnat things to do, but I don’t think it’s just me, I think it’s ambiguous the way the draft is currently worded. But maybe it is just me. In school I always like math and science and hated English, because of ambiguity, wishy wishy nitpicky rules that were arbitrary, messy, inconsistent. That’s why I made a strategic decision never to spend time and energy to try to master any human language, including Pali. Computer languages are reasonable. Human languages are a big mess. It’s like cats and dogs trying to communicate with each other.

[sujato]

@frankk

Without the 5 numbers explicitly numbered and unellided, it very much looks like "memorize, and remember’ is being used a synonym

I appreciate the point, and will reconsider the phrasing of this passage.