I need a guidance to understand the sutta AN8.64
Are there any parallel suttas to explain that particular sutta ?
I assume, this sutta gave a explanation about how to undestand kamma.
I need a guidance to understand the sutta AN8.64
@cdpatton translated MA73 which is a parallel of this Sutta. It is not yet on Suttacentral, but you can read it here: The Medium Discourses | Chapter 7: King Dīrghāyu | 73. Gods
Venerable Analayo did an online course on the MA and MA73 was included in this. This sutta is covered in lectures 4 and 5. See here:
Already I followed that Bhante Analayo’s series . Even Bhante Analayo also is not gave a clear explanation .
Dear Venerable. The impression I got from this sutta is that it describes the process in which the Buddha acquire his full range of the divine eye iddhi/the second vijja in the tevijja. And because of such a full range, he has the right to declare full awakening. The same in the Methuna Sutta, the Buddha described the full range of celibacy that he has undertaken, and because of such a whole practice, he has the right to declare his full awakening
Do you know any talks about these suttas
I think the main purpose of the sutra is to show that the Buddha had directly perceived and known the gods in the heavens, which was done during meditation. The arising of light and form is mentioned also in MN 128/MA 72 (the sutra immediately before this one in the Madhyama Agama) without explanation. This sutra appears to explain that reference in more detail. The light and forms were visions of the heavens and gods.
My impression is exactly the same. I wrote the following answer yesterday but something called so i had to stop…
Thank you for posting this sutta. I have not read it before. To me, it is about:
“Perceive light and see visions” is psychic power; the same as when the suttas say: “With clairvoyance [divine eye; dibbena cakkhunā] that is purified and superhuman, I saw sentient beings passing away and being reborn…” (e.g. MN 4)
Using psychic power, the Buddha-To-Be saw… [to be continued]
Very good request, comparison is the method of understanding suttas recommended by the Buddha (Majhima Nikaya 95) as it cultivates a broad mind state. This is unlike the reliance on translation of individual words which cultivates a narrow ‘can’t see the forest for the trees’ view.
Anguttara Nikaya 8.64 describes the situation from an advanced perspective, but it can be reduced to experiences more familiar to those on the path. The starting point of recollection of devas is described to a lay practitioner in Anguttara Nikaya 11. 12. The intermediate stage is described in Anguttara Nikaya 3.40 where the practitioner progresses from the self as a governing principle, to the stage dependent on some concentration attainment where they rely on the guidance of cosmic beings:
“Now if I, having gone forth, were to think thoughts of sensuality, thoughts of ill will, or thoughts of harmfulness: great is the community of this cosmos. And in the great community of this cosmos there are brahmans & contemplatives endowed with psychic power, clairvoyant, skilled [in reading] the minds of others. They can see even from afar. Even up close, they are invisible. With their awareness they know the minds of others. They would know this of me: “Look, my friends, at this clansman who — though he has in good faith gone forth from the home life into homelessness — remains overcome with evil, unskillful mental qualities.” There are also devas endowed with psychic power, clairvoyant, skilled [in reading] the minds of others. They can see even from afar. Even up close, they are invisible. With their awareness they know the minds of others. They would know this of me: “Look, my friends, at this clansman who — though he has in good faith gone forth from the home life into homelessness — remains overcome with evil, unskillful mental qualities.”’ So he reflects on this: ‘My persistence will be aroused & not lax; my mindfulness established & not confused; my body calm & not aroused; my mind centered & unified.’ Having made the cosmos his governing principle, he abandons what is unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, develops what is unblameworthy, and looks after himself in a pure way. This is called the cosmos as a governing principle.”
For me more interesting is the comparison in pali itself. There is the other sutta which seems the earliest. No mention of gods etc
Well, you should work out the reason for that. Before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too perceived both light and vision of forms. But before long my light and vision of forms vanished. It occurred to me: ‘What’s the cause, what’s the reason why my light and vision of forms vanish?’ It occurred to me: ‘Doubt arose in me, and because of that my immersion fell away. When immersion falls away, the light and vision of forms vanish. I’ll make sure that doubt will not arise in me again.
For me AN is later text. When things started to become more mystical in Buddhism.
It seems like disciples started asking things like what he meant with light and forms, so AN was answer. I think the same with bad destination etc
Both suttas seem exactly the same. Both seem about the development of the Divine Eye. MN 128 is about Anuruddha. Anuruddha & his disciples were masters of the Divine Eye, per SN 14.15:
Do you see Anuruddha walking together with several mendicants?”
Passatha no tumhe, bhikkhave, anuruddhaṁ sambahulehi bhikkhūhi saddhiṁ caṅkamantan”ti?
“All of those mendicants have clairvoyance.
“Sabbe kho ete, bhikkhave, bhikkhū dibbacakkhukā.
Please note in MN 128 as this light & visions starts to occur, various hindrances start to arise. This shows the “light” in MN 128 is not wisdom & not related to samadhi. It seems certainly the development of the Divine Eye, where Anuruddha & his like-minded companions start to see visions & hear voices of other beings. This is why the hindrances arise.
My impression is that this sutta is connected to the account of the Buddha recalling past lives. It appears to describe a progression from
Perceiving light to
Perceiving visions to
Talking to the figures in the visions to
Finding out who they are to
Finding out the acts that they did to
Finding out the pleasure results of those acts to
Finding out the eventual death of them to
Finding out that the Buddha too had been them
So there is an implicit structure here around
Identity being related to
actions being related to
pleasure and pain being related to
The drawback of death
Seeing these, and finding out that he had been just like those beings in the past the Buddha let’s go of attachment to this sort of higher identity.
This is like the knowledge and vision that arose in the first watch of the night, the Buddhas recollection of past lives.
The structure of the 3 knowledges is:
Seeing that past identities are conditioned
Seeing that present identities are conditioned
Seeing that no future identity will be
(Because attachment to identity has been overcome)