An arahant without dhamma knowledge?

Dear @Apeiron,

.1) it is Culapanthaka, who could not memorize even a single verse, but immediately forgot whatever he had memorized. But that was BEFORE he became an Arahant.

.2) If a person has reached Awakening, he /she understands the Dhamma.
It is through understanding the nature of the NOBLE TRUTHS, that the Deathless (Nibbana) is reached.

But this is different from being able to explain the Dhamma to others.
He may say: “I do not know, how to explain it to you, I just did what the teacher told me to do.”

However, he will pass away with a clear mind, entering Nibbana at the end of his last life.
No dementia (or Alzheimer) for Arahants.
At the time of death he is just “waiting” for the Five Aggregates, that arose when he was born, to dissolve one last time.

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If I may say, it seems that you felt insulted because @Mat expressed views which don’t accord with some of your personal religious beliefs, beliefs that are very important to you. While all of should try to avoid creating unnecessary pain in others, if that means we must avoid all statements or questions that could possibly offend or contradict the religious sensibilities and beliefs of all other participants, then I’m afraid none of us will be able to say much of interest about anything.

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@DKervick
That is exactly the point I am making with moderators.
Sound discussion requires some “pain” on both side.
Otherwise it is just “gentle” agressiveness of one view.

“Gentle” agressiveness is for instance, making illegal in Europe, to criticize twenty mandatory vaccines; when most of people agree for the four necessary ones. Implying that people that criticize are just backward morons.
This is kind of “gentle” agressiveness.

“Gentle” agressiveness could be to make you agressive, when you don’t agree with secular buddhism, for instance.

If you don’t agree with something, just express the points on the which you don’t agree, and lay out the basis for your disagreement .

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The mere fact that someone holds and expresses views of which you don’t approve is not an aggression against you.

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Hello folks, please keep to the OP, avoid overly personal challenging exchange and just ignore posts that don’t constructively contribute to the conversation so as to prevent proliferation.

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No occurence of dementia in Arahants in EBTs, with parallels.
Very wrong. Very insulting.
(see above)

And I will add:
Very full of dangerous implications.

USSR showed how they dealt with their opponents.
When “their” reason could not prevail, they called on dementia.
Very dangerous.

You see rot I mean ? :slight_smile:

Actually, I do not see what you mean@pison. @mat did not say that all arahants have dementia. He did not suggest locking arahants away. He raised the possibility that some arahants might have dementia, in the same way that other people have dementia, and in the same way arahants and others are seen in the suttas to suffer from various other kinds of infirmities.

Now maybe this is right, and maybe this is wrong. Nevertheless, it is a view @mat, a long time participant here, should be able to feel free to express without being subject to a load of harsh, personal, intimidating intolerance.

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Oh dear !

DKervick you are, of course, entirely correct when you note that Mat (or indeed, any user) should “be able to feel free to express without being subject to a load of harsh, personal, intimidating intolerance.”

That noted, as advised above, please now let all drop this off-topic line.

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@viveka, is it a part of rules of conduct here that the only views that may be expressed are views that accord with dhamma, and that any views that come solely from personal expertise must be withheld? I believe @mat is a doctor. Are the views he has that come from his medical training, but that are not to be found in 2500 year old suttas, inappropriate?

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Agreed. We should discuss the Dhamma in non-‘combative’ manner, if we are to follow the words of the Buddha.

Indeed. No arahanth or Buddha had dementia. Thank you.

I don’t intend to bring my qualifications into this but scientific knowledge is out there and anyone can access it. We must be able to explain (as much as possible) using science as well as paying heed to religious sensibilities- but where there is lack of information, it can be provided and whether someone is willing to accept or not is entirely up to them. EBTs would be a common ground for everyone to agree on.

with metta

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What suttas with parallels say (when properly translated,) is that completely liberated citta is out of reach of internal ayatanani and kama loka.

Totally liberated citta is metaphysics.
And as far as I know, science has yet not ruled out metaphysics.
Modern philosophy has shown old school of purely “scientific knowledge” that controversy is still on; even more than ever.
Qualia is an example.
But more important maybe for “old schoolers” of pure scientific knowledge, is philosophy and science of information.

This is 21st century. Exit 18th century.

Bowls are made to receive food.
This is good scientific information.
This is what genuine suttas are telling us.


And again, yes ! - Arahants need to learn Dhamma. Genuine uncorrupted Dhamma.

What a question ?

@Pison, why don’t we start a new thread?

with metta,

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No thanks.

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@DKervick Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Not at all :slight_smile: I meant that everyone is entitled to views - but that it is not about who is right and who is wrong. That no participant should just assert that someone is wrong, because of their disagreement. I posted it in response to your post, because I was endorsing what you said

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“259 A man is not versed in Dhamma because he speaks much. He who, after hearing a little Dhamma, realizes its truth directly and is not heedless of it, is truly versed in the Dhamma”

Aṭṭhakathā
Verse 259 (3) The Story of Ekudana the Arahat While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (259) of this book, with reference to a bhikkhu who was an arahat. This bhikkhu lived in a grove near Savatthi. He was known as Ekudana, because he knew only one stanza of exultation (Udana) by heart. But the thera fully understood the meaning of the Dhamma as conveyed by the stanza. On each sabbath day, he would exhort others to listen to the Dhamma, and he himself would recite the one stanza he knew. Every time he had finished his recitation, the guardian spirits (devas) of the forests praised him and applauded him resoundingly. On one sabbath day, two learned theras, who were well-versed in the Tipitaka, accompanied by five hundred bhikkhus came to his place. Ekudana asked the two theras to preach the Dhamma. They enquired if there were many who wished to listen to the Dhamma in this out of the way place. Ekudana answered in the affirmative and also told them that even the guardian spirits of the forests usually came, and that they usually praised and applauded at the end of discourses. "

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