Good explanation - I hadn’t thought of it like that before.
1 Like
The Buddha uses the synonyms/descriptions for Nibbāna:
- peaceful
- sublime
- how it is (the truth)
———————————
To imagine regarding ”doesn’t exist after death”:
- ”this is peaceful,
- sublime
- the truth”
is to overreach.
—————————
So it looks like it doesn’t matter if a self is involved or not - in essence it still a wrong view and to overreach.
“Doesn’t exist after death” refers to the Tathagata rather than to Nibbana, doesn’t it?
I can’t quote here without it breaking but check the final verses of DN11 by Bhante Sujato.
I think all semantic explanation for nirvana is a conventional approximation, poetic language and there’s little reason to think otherwise.
Arupa Jhanas describe successively abandoning space, consciousness, nothingness, and after that, a plane beyond perception or non-perception. Just as Buddha employs conventional language to talk about himself, so are the descriptions of Nirvana mere conventions to try and point to a place where words and our concepts have ceased to exist.
But where one can still perceive according to both The Buddha AN 10.6 & Sariputta AN 10.7 
Anidassam is also a description/synonym for Nibbāna, just like peaceful, sublime, the unconditioned etc.
This is Nibbāba:
- peaceful
- sublime
- how it is (the truth)
To imagine that “Doesn’t exist after death” is peaceful, sublime and the truth is to overreach.
So therefore ”mere cessation” is to overreach - regardless if a self is involved or not.
We can summarize how and why we differ with the following:
What we agree upon is that there is a state of immersion, that is beyond all planes of existence, where it is still possible to perceive
This immersion (AN 10.6 & AN 10.7) has the following descriptions:
- The Unconditioned
- The destruction of lust, hate, delusion
- The Uninclined
- The taintless
- The truth
- The other shore
- The subtle
- The very difficult to see
- The unaging
- The stable
- The undisintegrating
- The unmanifest
- The unproliferated
- The peaceful
- The deathless
- The sublime
- The auspicious
- The secure
- The destruction of craving
- The wonderful
- The amazing
- The unailing
- The unailing state
- The unafflicted
- Dispassion
- Purity
- Freedom
- Non attachment
- The island
- The shelter
- The asylum
- The refuge
- The destination and the path leading to the destination
But where we disagree is when cessationists insist on and claim the following:
When the body of an arahant dies, as in final parinibbāna - that immersion beyond all planes of existence with those descriptions where one can still perceive - is no longer possible to attain due to the death of the body and so one does not perceive… 
That is why and how we differ.
As to why, or even how, cessationists know this? - Would be very interesting to hear. 
The immersion being described in AN 10.6 is a living state, right?
It’s describing Nibbana:
“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’”
What happens when an Arahant dies seems like a different question to me. You seem to be conflating the two things.
Exactly!
So how can cessationists be so sure then what final parinibbāna really entails?
How do they know that the immersion in question is impossible just because of the death of the body?
“Sir, where do these four primary elements cease without anything left over, namely, the elements of earth, water, fire, and air?”
[Buddha said] This is how the question should be asked:
“Where do water and earth, fire and air find no footing?” DN11
We can perceive the other shore, but just as water and earth, fire and air find no footing, anything that falls under “I” doesn’t find a footing in Nirvana.
Being able to perceive that there are things imperceptible, is different from those [indescribable] things having a sentient being who perceive beyond the realm of neither perception nor non-perception. Nibbana and Parinibbana.
" How do they know that the immersion in question is impossible just because of the death of the body? "
Five aggregates - skandhas - Form (rupa), Sensations (vedana), Perception (samjna), Mental Activity (sanskara), Discernemnt (vijnana).
Nirvana is where five aggregates have no hold.
“Mendicants, form is impermanent, decaying, and perishing. Feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are impermanent, decaying, and perishing.
Someone who has faith and confidence in these teachings is called a follower by faith. They’ve arrived at surety in the right way, they’ve arrived at the level of the true person, and they’ve transcended the level of the untrue person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.
Someone who accepts these teachings after deliberating them with a degree of wisdom is called a follower of teachings. They’ve arrived at surety in the right way, they’ve arrived at the level of the true person, and they’ve transcended the level of the untrue person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.
Someone who understands and sees these principles is called a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.” SN25.10
Further:
“Mendicants, there are these four noble truths. What four? The noble truths of suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.
And what is the noble truth of suffering? You should say: ‘The five grasping aggregates’. That is: form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness. This is called the noble truth of suffering.
And what is the noble truth of the origin of suffering? It’s the craving that leads to future lives, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure wherever it lands. That is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving to continue existence, and craving to end existence. This is called the noble truth of the origin of suffering.
And what is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering? It’s the fading away and cessation of that very same craving with nothing left over; giving it away, letting it go, releasing it, and not clinging to it. This is called the noble truth of the cessation of suffering.
And what is the noble truth of the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering? It is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion. This is called the noble truth of the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. These are the four noble truths.
That’s why you should practice meditation …” SN56.13
That is not answering my question at all because in AN 10.6 & AN 10.7 one can gain a state of immersion beyond all the elements and beyond all the planes of existence and yet still perceive.
Please explain how and why this very same immersion, Nibbāna, is all of a sudden impossible to attain when the body of an arahant dies?
All 4 Truths are said to be a reality in the suttas
“Cattārimāni, bhikkhave, tathāni avitathāni anaññathāni. Katamāni cattāri? ‘Idaṁ dukkhan’ti, bhikkhave, tathametaṁ avitathametaṁ anaññathametaṁ; ‘ayaṁ dukkhasamudayo’ti tathametaṁ avitathametaṁ anaññathametaṁ; ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodho’ti tathametaṁ avitathametaṁ anaññathametaṁ; ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti tathametaṁ avitathametaṁ anaññathametaṁ— imāni kho, bhikkhave, cattāri tathāni avitathāni anaññathāni. Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, ‘idaṁ dukkhan’ti yogo karaṇīyo …pe… ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yogo karaṇīyo”ti.
“Mendicants, these four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise. What four? ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’ … These four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise.
That’s why you should practice meditation …”
SN 56.20
Translation is Sujato’s
2 Likes
Because Buddha specifically teaches the ending of perception:
“Bhikkhus, I say that the destruction of the taints is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know and does not see. For one who knows what, for one who sees what, does the destruction of the taints come about? ‘Such is form, such its origin, such its passing away; such is feeling … such is perception … such are volitional formations … such is consciousness, such its origin, such its passing away’: it is for one who knows thus, for one who sees thus, that the destruction of the taints comes about. Sn12:23
Why do you think Buddha refers to perception here as a taint, and why does he teach it’s ending? Unless you think Buddha is not explicitly teaching the destruction of the taint known as perception.
“Could it be, reverend Sāriputta, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this?
They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And they wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And yet they would still perceive.”
“It could be, Reverend Ānanda.”
You’re again referring to a state of immersion, while in a previous sutta I’ve quoted, Buddha teaches the destruction of the perception taint.
Yes a state of immersion beyond all the planes of existence that happens to be called Nibbāna among other things.
So how do you know that this immersion, nibbāna, is impossible to still perceive for arahants who have died?
Haha sorry I just find it funny that you claim that Nibbāna is ”impossible” to attain for arahants…
There is a difference between Nibbana and Parinibbana. They are not the same thing. Arahats, attaining nibbana, still have feelings, perceptions, still see form, etc. They’re still tainted with aggregates without associating with them.
Buddha explicitly teaches against perception, teaches it as a taint, teaches it’s destruction. A person, having reached Nibbana in their life, attain Parinibbana, and thus all taints (Form, Feeling, Perception, Will, Consciousness) are destroyed without remainder.
But according to MN1 even puthujjanas can delight in and identify with Nibbāna - The Buddha teaches that one should not delight and call Nibbāna ”me” & ”mine”, in AN 10.6 & AN 10.7 one can perceive Nibbana, the unconditioned etc.
Cessationists still claim that parinibbāna is somehow different, but where is the actual evidence? How can you be so sure?
So if nibbāna is:
- The Unconditioned
- The destruction of lust, hate, delusion
- The Uninclined
- The taintless
- The truth
- The other shore
- The subtle
- The very difficult to see
- The unaging
- The stable
- The undisintegrating
- The unmanifest
- The unproliferated
- The peaceful
- The deathless
- The sublime
- The auspicious
- The secure
- The destruction of craving
- The wonderful
- The amazing
- The unailing
- The unailing state
- The unafflicted
- Dispassion
- Purity
- Freedom
- Non attachment
- The island
- The shelter
- The asylum
- The refuge
- The destination and the path leading to the destination
What is parinibbāna then if not these very descriptions?
We can perceive that there are things beyond perception.
I am not arguing with the conventional and poetic explanations given to Nibbana. I’m saying that an arahat, after death, is no longer tainted with Form, Feeling, Perception, Will or Consciousness. This is the very Four Noble Truths.
Perhaps this sutta can shed some light on perception:
“‘Perception should be known. The cause of perception… The diversity in perception… The result of perception… The cessation of perception… The path of practice for the cessation of perception should be known.’ Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?
“There are these six kinds of perception: the perception of form, the perception of sound, the perception of aroma, the perception of flavor, the perception of tactile sensation, the perception of ideas.
“And what is the cause of perception? Contact is the cause of perception.
“And what is the diversity in perception? Perception with regard to forms is one thing, perception with regard to sounds is another, perception with regard to aromas is another, perception with regard to flavors is another, perception with regard to tactile sensations is another, perception with regard to ideas is another. This is called the diversity in perception.
“And what is the result of perception? Perception has expression as its result, I tell you. However a person perceives something, that is how he expresses it: 'I have this sort of perception.’ This is called the result of perception.
“And what is the cessation of perception? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of perception; and just this noble eightfold path—right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right samādhi—is the way leading to the cessation of perception.
“Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns perception in this way, the cause of perception in this way, the diversity of perception in this way, the result of perception in this way, the cessation of perception in this way, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of perception.
“‘Perception should be known. The cause of perception… The diversity in perception… The result of perception… The cessation of perception… The path of practice for the cessation of perception should be known.’ Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said. AN6.63
Buddha explicitly teaches the origins of and advocates the destruction of clinging aggregates.
Anything after that regarding Nibbana is beyond our linguistic explanations.