I suppose it might be, albeit with some differences. Most modern methods entail going through all 4 tetrads in one sitting. With the Visuddhimagga you can only progress after mastering the required jhanas. Could you expand on your anti-step theory of ānāpānasati practice and how SN 54.1 and SN 47.2 supports that interpretation? In relation to SN 54.8 my reading would be that the base of infinite space etc is done after the 4th Jhana in the 3rd tetrad, with insight occurring after leaving said attainment before entering the next.
@Martin
@karl_lew The difficulty in thinking of an absence of vinnana, the aggregate. The trouble with consciousness?
In Abyakatasamyuatta SN 44. 1. Buddha admits
“The tathagata great king is liberated from reckoning in terms of consciousness”
Yet, some of us need a crutch, the crutch of “consciousness”. We are prisoners of aggregates.
Buddha speaks about a crutch in Kalaha-Viveda sutta.
Sn 4.11 Excerpt: “There is also the Muni, the wise man. He has realized which things are dependencies and he knows that these are only crutches and props, and when he has realized this, he has become free.
He does not enter into arguments and so does not enter the round of endless becomings”
A complete reading on the Sutta, is found here.
When we attempt to give up thinking in certain ways, it
disorients us. It is due to the way we react to “it was here before, now it is not there”. We can’t deal with it, due to a view we hang onto. Views trap us, as 5 aggregates do. A view is a product of the 5 aggregates. But aggregates are fluid and changeful. Something based on changeful things, view, is it to be trusted? is it to be clung to?
Kajjaniya writes “aggregates eat us up”
Arahant has annihilated the 5 aggregates. SN 44.3 SN 44.5 assert
“But friend one who knows and sees the origin, its cessation and the way leading there to.”
One who knows? is the goal of buddhist path.
Any feeling or perception created by a view, only devours one. Is this not what is consuming you? The feeling that consciousness exists invisibly, infinitely, although free of name and form?
Aggregates stand in the way of progress, work towards eliminating them is Buddha’s advice.
The ten Unexplained points. Abyakata-vatthu.
1-2 Is the world eternal or not?
3-4 Is the world finite or not?
5-6 Is the soul life principle the same as the body or not?
In SN 44 abyakata-Vagga
SN 44.7 Moggallana explains that others answer the questions because of identification with the sense faculties, the Buddha lacks this identification.
SN 44.8 Moggallana says the ten questions are answered by those who see the five aggregates in terms of self. (Ascetics of other sects like upanisadic, vedic etc. answer the questions, because they identify with a self).
SN 44.3 The questions about the Arahant are bound up with the five aggregates (rupagatam) They do not apply when five aggregates are overcome. Arahant is beyond the 5 aggregates.
Questions arise when there is attachment to the aggregates. They are the preoccupation of those attached, whose reality is defined by the five aggregates.
@Martin @karl_lew, would you not admit that your reality is defined by the 5 aggregates?
Martin i like what you wrote “vinnana free of nama-rupa?”
but think about what you are saying, vinnana is dependent on nama-rupa, If nama-rupa disappeared can vinnana thrive, does it not dissipate? go out of existence?
A baby bird just born, is dependent on the food brought in by the mother, what happens to the baby bird if mother dies? Does not the baby die too?
This disappearance of Nama-rupa is what Samma sati and same samadhi are getting at. A practice!
This conversation will make a lot more sense if you begin practice of 4 jhanas as outlined in the EBTs. I will simplify it for the two of you.
From DN 2.
Forget the terminology, words like hindrances, vitaka, vicara, piti, sukha and whatever else. Just settle down for a moment. Exit the sensosphere.
As i implied earlier, quite lifestyle of sanity is a prerequisite, MN 53. I imagine your lifestyles to be so. Sailing? driving, country roads?
The Practice simplified
- Imagine the soap powder that ancients folded into a smooth sphere, wind can no more scatter that powder. Scattering thought is the powder.
- Bring to mind, “a lake at the foothills of Himalayas, it sits at the summit of a smaller hill, its internal currents fountaining, soothing suffusing the body of lake, internally” Peace!
- A lake: with lotuses blooming, Feel the transformation within the blue red and white, immersed in the cool water of an undisturbed lake. Light filtering in.
- A body covered entirely in a white cloth, not the slightest bit of the body exposed, not even one nanometer. The white cloth? what does it symbolize? purity? totality? sanity? entirely cut off from the sensory world.
If the word jhana confuses, think of it as Buddhist Samadhi.
I recall B. Sujato explained this word and how it is derived, in one of his talks, worth listening to.
I will try to locate it.
Martin Karl you guys have poetic streaks in you …
Let your imagination settle on these four Similes, you have it in you. You describe the effect, sailing has on you. Karl you describe bug splat on a windshield.
Likewise, be inspired by the simplest teachings of the Buddha.
Tell me how you think of consciousness afterwards. Can it survive without Nama-rupa? Meditation makes you visualize, disappearance of Nama-rupa. Finally unlearn everything you have come to learn.
Samma sati and Samma samadhi is about renunciation.
@Gillian
i marvel at your comment. You highlighted the essence of Sandha, in one comment. To acquire that skill will take me time
@Christopher I will address the issues you raise on a later date. Bear with me.
@Ceisiwr Anapanasati? I have come to think of it as a modified Satipatthana, or a fancier version of it, that appeal to many.
This thread is quite limited. Satipatthana will be discussed based on SN 47.42 primarily. With Samma Samadhi I try to say true to the 8-fold path, which considers Samma samadhi as limited to 4 buddhist jhanas. An approach, intended to keep the discussion neat and tidy.
Perhaps on another day, I might make a reference to MN 118. First i have to explain SN 47. 42, which Karl asked me to do at the beginning. I have not done this yet.
Neither have i indicated in detail how Samma sati and Samma Samadhi are related. @Suaimhneas, I have not forgotten you.
I need to introduce other suttas, into the discussion, before i begin this. Even though this is not a discussion of the five aggregates, it is raw material for “why meditate” therefore essential, and so is Son’s flesh SN 12.60 raw material for discussion.
@Upasaka_Dhammasara your notion of 5 aggregates, it appears to me that you think of these as things (things found in the ocean of samsara). They cannot be thought of this way, they are in constant renewal, not persistent in an ocean? However what @Nimal says is true
“all the blood shed in our past lives is more massive than the ocean, or all the tears shed in our prior lives, is more vast than the ocean”
Metaphor indicates, endlessness of suffering in past lives.
Five aggregates are murdered at death and reformed in the new birth. In the in between what happens? Don’t think about it.
I think of aggregates as means Buddha devised, to get the notion of suffering, its ending, across to us. If you learn to approach the Doctrine in this manner, you also will learn to overcome suffering by overcoming aggregates. He created the notion of aggregates only to destroy them.
The goal is to realize suffering, and end it.
I thank the moderators @Viveka @musiko who are kind to me. I will go over the tutorials as I find time.
A peaceful weekend!
PS I like to stay away from Arupas as much as possible. This thread was not meant for that. It might distract from the main thrust of discussion.
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I suspect that you misread my comment (the one with the coloured background?). I was demonstrating how to quote material in order to respond to (as I am quoting you in this post). So somebody else said that and I quoted it randomly! 
The advantages of using this semi-automatic quote system are not only that it’s quick and easy, but also the quotations stand out and it’s possible for a reader to click on the upward pointing arrow (top right of quote) to go straight to the post it was extracted from.
Try it out!!
The step theory of both satipatthana and anapanasati practices is simply not found in the SN/SA suttas, such as SN 47 Satipatthana Samyutta and SN 54 Anapanasti Samyutta, e.g. the mentioned SN 47.2 and SN 54.1 suttas (= SA 622 and SA 803. See Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 215-6, 225-7). So, it is simply not an interpretation to say that the theory of “steps” is entirely a doctrine unsupported by the suttas.
This interpretation is clearly not found in the sutta SN 54.8 (and its corresponding Agama sutra, SA 814. See p. 227, note 68, in The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism).
Also, regarding “insight”, if according to SN/SA suttas, it is mainly about passati, janati and right view (See pp. 34, 53, 60-1, 91, 192-5, in The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism). It does not have to be done, or practiced after emerging from the 4th Jhana, in the sati practices.
I’ve just read the page references you gave from The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism. I don’t see anything to support your claim that there is no step method for anapanasati. Could you perhaps expand a little bit as to why you think it does? Interestingly, on page 228 it does state that the parallels include the reference to “training” and this training refers too:
(1) the training of higher morality (;ii 1: flX;!J adhisila-sikkhii)
(2) the training of higher mind (;ii 1: ~!J adhicitta-sikkhii)
(3) the training of higher wisdom (;ii 1: tI,!J adhipaiiiiii-sikkhii)
The training of higher mind is Jhana. This is the same understanding as the Paṭisambhidāmagga (3rd-1st B.C), the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga. The Vimuttimagga, which is associated with the Abhayagiri monastery, teaches that all 4 Jhanas can be obtained in any tetrad. The Visuddhimagga, associated with the Mahāvihāra and so Theravadin Orthodoxy, does not. The Vimuttimagga, and so likely the heretical Abhayagiri monastery understanding, does not make much sense to me. If all 4 Jhanas are achieved just by the first tetrad then what is being “liberated” in step 12 (liberating the mind)?. The Vimuttimagga answers with:
" ‘Freeing the mind, I breathe in’, thus he trains himself": That
yogin attends to the incoming breath and the outgoing breath. If his mind
is slow and slack, he frees it from rigidity; if it is too active, he frees it from
restlessness. Thus he trains himself. If his mind is elated, he frees it from
lust. Thus he trains himself. If it is depressed, he frees it from hatred. Thus
he trains himself. If his mind is sullied, he frees it from the lesser defilements.
Thus he trains himself. And again, if his mind is not inclined towards the
object and is not pleased with it, he causes his mind to be inclined towards it.
Thus he trains himself."
Which is strange, since you think this would have already happened (as in the previous step there are the 4 Jhanas). In the Visuddhimagga we find instead these instructions:
Liberating the [manner of] consciousness: he both breathes in and breathes
out delivering, liberating, the mind from the hindrances by means of the first
jhána, from applied and sustained thought by means of the second, from
happiness by means of the third, from pleasure and pain by means of the fourth.
Or alternatively, when, having entered upon those jhánas and emerged from
them, he comprehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhána
as liable to destruction and to fall, then at the actual time of insight he delivers,
liberates, the mind from the perception of permanence by means of the
contemplation of impermanence, from the perception of pleasure by means of
the contemplation of pain, from the perception of self by means of the
contemplation of not self, from delight by means of the contemplation of
dispassion, from greed by means of the contemplation of fading away, from
arousing by means of the contemplation of cessation, from grasping by means
of the contemplation of relinquishment. Hence it is said: [290] “He trains thus: ‘I
shall breathe in … shall breathe out liberating the [manner of] consciousness.65
’” So this tetrad should be understood to deal with contemplation of mind
I would say this matches what we find in the Anupubbanirodha Sutta:
“When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has been stopped. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thoughts & evaluations [verbal fabrications] have been stopped. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has been stopped. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breaths [bodily fabrications] have been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has been stopped. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perceptions & feelings [mental fabrications] have been stopped.
https://suttacentral.net/an9.31/en/thanissaro
If a person stops at the 4th Jhana and then moves onto the 4th tetrad or moves up through the higher attainments depends on what type of person they are, resulting in the different types of Arahant.
So i guess my question for you is, if there is no progression then what is the point of “step 12”, in light of the higher training etc?
In relation to satipatthana one part can be focused on as and when, although my understanding is that mindfulness should be maintained in reference to all of them as much as possible all of the time. The satipatthanas are a foundational practice. Anapanasati is more advanced which fulfills them which, in my view, is done in stages.
The anapanasati is the 16 practices, according to the sutta. The text does not say the practices are steps in connection with Jhanas.
The satipatthana is also not about the steps in connection with Jhanas, according to the sutta.
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I like your emphasis on “lack of papanca”. Proliferations are a topic I must admit that I have not considered very much. I guess it makes sense that it only comes at the end of the eight thoughts of a great man. IIRC the usual understanding is that craving, wrong views and conceit (“not me, not mine, not my self”) fuel proliferations, and the end of conceit comes only towards the end of the path. So I suppose vinnana matta must be something like mental activities/consciousness without the taint of these three things. On killing this consciousness, I guess you mean the consciousness of proliferation, rather than consciousness per se (though I guess if the chain of dependent origination is undone, then the unbinding of that is also only a matter of time).
It all seems fairly open-ended to me in the suttas. The relationship between it and jhana is also interesting to speculate about. When piti or sukha or quietening of various formations are mentioned, it seems natural to make the leap to make associations with various steps in jhana. I’d be wary of over-systematization though (neatly wrapping everything up in one system).
I suppose there are broadly three approaches: treating them as individual practices, treating them per tetrad, or treating the whole thing as one sequence. I’m not sure there’s enough in the suttas to rule any of those in or out.
The Visuddhimagga’s scheme with jhana seems reasonable enough. We don’t really have a representative sampling of early thought on the matter to say that was definitive. Not all scholars agree that the Vimuttimagga originated in the Abhayagiri monastery anyway so perhaps it represents just another of perhaps several approaches that might have been circulating at the time.
I think various schemes are possible. Things depend too on which of the various schools of opinion on jhana one holds to! 
One possibility is that jhana only comes into things towards the end of the third tetrad when samadhi and liberating the mind are mentioned. This would be acceptable to those who hold that no bodily perceptions are possible even within first jhana. I suppose after finishing the end of the third tetrad, one transitions into jhana, and after coming out one can do the fourth tetrad then if one wants.
Another possibility comes from mentions of piti and sukha in the second tetrad. Seems reasonable to associate these with the second and third jhana. Of course, that assumes one is aware of breathing within these jhana states!
And I suppose there is the practical complication of descriptions of breathing ceasing in the fourth jhana. How can one practically do breath meditation when breath has ceased?
That leads onto another scheme. Many of the final steps within the tetrads do sound rather like fourth jhana, e.g. the body/bodily formations becoming quiescent in the fourth jhana. Perhaps if one treated a tetrad as single unit of practice, by the fourth step one is on the verge of fourth jhana, the breath ceases and one is aware of that, and then one just carries on in fourth jhana (not really doing breath meditation anymore). Maybe a rather advanced practice of the first type of mindfulness meditation (the first tetrad), involves going through all four jhanas. Similarly, the final practice of the second tetrad, where one has stilled these emotions, does sound like it could sometimes be fourth jhana as well. Similarly, for the third tetrad. A possible progression of practice could be going through all jhanas for just one tetrad.
This could even hold for the final tetrad, but this depends on whether one thinks could can have such perceptions within jhana or not (another controversial question). Perhaps where the breath is ceasing and one is in the stage of letting go (the breath is also being let go) and one is entering into fourth jhana.
I suspect there are different levels of practice too. One can have degrees of piti and sukha or samadhi without necessarily being in jhana. “Liberating the mind” could mean quite a wide range of things. IMO it’s not clear-cut from the suttas whether jhana is even needed for the first and second stages of the path, so it seems likely that a person might benefit a lot even from non-jhana anapanasati practice.
I’d think there’s probably no single one-and-only valid approach to this.
I thought you might find this interesting …
From Time magazine : Science: The Fleeting Flesh, Monday, Oct. 11, 1954
About 98% of the atoms in the human body are renewed each year. This surprising fact is discussed by Dr. Paul C. Aebersold of Oak Ridge in the latest Annual Report of the Smithsonian Institution. Dr. Aebersold based his conclusion on experiments with radioisotopes, which trace the movements of chemical elements in and out of the body.The fastest-changing component, says Dr. Aebersold, is water. It forms about 70% of the body, and about half the water molecules are replaced every eight days.
Looked at in a certain way, nearly everything in the world has at some time been or will be part of this Rupa-khanda that is called ‘I’… and that includes other bodies too…past present and future…
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The anapanasati is the 16 practices, according to the sutta. The text does not say the practices are steps in connection with Jhanas.
Ven. Buddhaghosa makes the point that only the 1st tetrad has any discussion of a preliminary practice. The rest of the tetrads do not, thus suggesting they are practiced after the 1st tetrad. This indicates that we are dealing with a progression. As for Jhanas, we are told in SN 54.8 that anapanasati can lead to the development of the Jhanas. This matches the Patisambhidamagga (3rd Century B.C.) when it talks about minduflness of breathing being involved with “training in the higher mind”. The same understanding is found in the Vim. and Visu. We are also told that anapanasati can lead to nibbana and that the Buddha practiced anapanasati during his own awakening. Given that Jhana is required for arahantship/Buddhahood, that the practice lead the Buddha to nibbana, that it “trains in higher mind” and that there is no premlimanry steps for tetrads 2-4 I think there is a strong argument that anapanasati, in its more advanced practice, is a practice in developing Jhana and insight in progressive stages which culminates in release.
The satipatthana is also not about the steps in connection with Jhanas, according to the sutta.
Anapanasati fulfills satipatthana.
It all seems fairly open-ended to me in the suttas. The relationship between it and jhana is also interesting to speculate about. When piti or sukha or quietening of various formations are mentioned, it seems natural to make the leap to make associations with various steps in jhana. I’d be wary of over-systematization though (neatly wrapping everything up in one system).
I suppose there are broadly three approaches: treating them as individual practices, treating them per tetrad, or treating the whole thing as one sequence. I’m not sure there’s enough in the suttas to rule any of those in or out.
Yes, that was my point. The suttas on mindfulness of breathing are the bare bones of the practice. They need to be fleshed out as to what the practice actually entails. The earliest description on how to practice it comes from the Patisambhidamagga, Vim., Visu. and the commentaries.
I think various schemes are possible. Things depend too on which of the various schools of opinion on jhana one holds to!
I think an argument can be made that mindfulness with breathing can be practiced without jhana, simply via access concentration. I believe Ven. Analaylo makes this point. That could potentially lead to stream-entry or once-return. However, for non-return or Arahantship the Jhanas will be required. The question is then when do they develop during the practice? Since each tetrad is a “training in higher mind”, that is to say Jhana, and since step 5 and 6 of the 2nd tetrad involves piti and sukha specifically, then i think it follows that these stages are about developing and training the 2nd and 3rd Jhana based off having obtained the 1st prior to the practice. This suggests that the 1st tetrad is about training in higher mind for the 1st Jhana.
Another possibility comes from mentions of piti and sukha in the second tetrad. Seems reasonable to associate these with the second and third jhana. Of course, that assumes one is aware of breathing within these jhana states!
And I suppose there is the practical complication of descriptions of breathing ceasing in the fourth jhana. How can one practically do breath meditation when breath has ceased?
As Jhana is absorption there cannot be any insight whilst in it. You leave the jhana and then contemplate and gain insight in the afterglow of the jhana you have just left.
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Is remembering all these in your mind necessary? It seems actually necessary but once you know it’s better to focus on learning what hindrance you personally have. And let with time when your in higher training your supposed to let all happen naturally until your experience has less hindrances. And you mastered staying long sitting. It probably refine your mind. Until something like this happens.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.7/en/sujato
Like for example thinking like gradually until becomes part of you. Until it happens naturally.
But it didn’t occur to me: ‘I am entering the first absorption’ or ‘I have entered the first absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the first absorption’.”
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It does not mean the 16 practices in the SN suttas are the ‘steps’ theory in connection with the 4 Jhanas for ‘insight’.
Well, do explain your understanding?
If you ask to explain my understanding of ‘insight’, as indicated previously, if according to SN/SA suttas, it is mainly about passati, janati and right view (See pp. 34, 53, 60-1, 91, 192-5, in The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism).
The practice of ‘insight’ does not have to be done, or practiced after emerging from the 4th Jhana in the sati practices.
The practice of ‘insight’ centres mainly on practice and experience for individuals in a practical sense, rather than on idealistic and systematic theory, according to the above-mentioned SN/SA suttas.
So, the 16 practices in the SN suttas are not the ‘steps’ theory in connection with the 4 Jhanas for ‘insight’.
So how does one go about practicing the 3rd tetrad exactly? What role does Jhana play in your view of things, and how is it developed?
One does not really need to speculate: “how does one go about practicing the 3rd tetrad exactly?” or “What role does Jhana play in view of things, and how is it developed?”, according to the mentioned SN/SA suttas.
What does that mean? I assume there is a method for practicing the 3rd tetrad and a role for Jhana in your view of things?
It means one does not really need to speculate: there is a method for practicing the 3rd tetrad and a role for Jhana. The term ‘Jhana’ is in fact not found in the mentioned SN 54.1 Anapanasati and SN 47.2 Satipatthana.
Given that anapanasati can lead to Arahantship it must be connected to Jhana in some way. What is that connection, from an EBT position?