Anxieties...originating in accordance with natural principles

Discussion
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So. In SN22.7, there is this line:

Anxieties occupy their mind, born of latching on to the perishing of form, and originating in accordance with natural principles.

I’ve read through this thread that circles the translation aspects of this line, but I’m interested in what the party line is about how these natural principles are understood. Seems to me that these principles beg exploration and definition; without explanation, I wonder if use of those words as explanation amounts to hand-waving? It seems to me that the line, as far as the teaching is concerned, could simply be Anxieties occupy their mind, born of latching on to the perishing of form and stop there. What are these “natural principles” and what do they add to our understanding of anxiety?

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It’s all about grasping — grasping at forms, feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness.
Anxiety arises because of the very nature of the things one clings to: it is natural that things change into something else, that one can be separated from them, and that suffering arises when they are regarded as the self or as belonging to the self.

One is anxious only about the things one grasps. The less grasping there is, the less one is subject to anxiety.

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The Pāli term here is dhamma-samuppādā This is gesturing (in my mind) towards both the “Three Characteristics” and to “Dependent Origination” (paṭicca-samuppāda)

One sutta cannot contain the entirety of the teachings, so they have to gesture towards other suttas that expand upon those ideas.

The CIPS has references to many suttas about both dependent origination and the three characteristics if you’d like to learn more about those.

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@brunobr Yes, I agree with the point about grasping. However, it seems to me that the teaching about the implications of grasping is already included/implied by the first part of the sentence– “born of latching on to the perishing of form.” It still is not clear to me what these “natural principles” are, as the sutta already talks about grasping. The way the sentence is constructed “…, and originating in” seems to me to indicate that the “natural principles” are something separate from this latching/grasping.

@Khemarato.bhikkhu Thank you for your reply. I understand how “natural principles” might lead one to consider the three characteristics and to dependent origination, but it seems we don’t actually know that that usage is the author’s intent. “Natural principles” could be, for example, feelings of anxiety/stress/discomfort that are induced from without, say, by unintentionally consuming a large amount of caffeine or other stimulant.

It is interesting to me, too, that dhamma-samuppādā doesn’t seem to arise much anywhere else in the tipitaka, other than in the similar MN138 where it has the same sense and in SN55.23 where it is simply translated as “teachings.” There is a Theragatha verse (Thag16.1) where it seems to mean “arising of phenomena.”

Explaining that anxiety could arise in accordance with “the teachings” isn’t super helpful and still begs the question (for me) why this strange, rare (for the suttas) verbiage is used (might it point to a later addition?). And explaining that anxiety could arise in accordance with “the arising of phenomena” (if we use this sense of dhamma-samuppādā as the term is used in the Theragatha) points to an entire new and separate Buddhist psychology– that anxiety develops from the arising of phenomena in addition to clinging and grasping. I don’t think the Theragatha passage means dependent arising in this case. Instead, the Theragatha passage seems to use “arising” as “presence of” or “appearance of” as the sense of such “appearance” is used soon afterwards: “The world is like grass and sticks”

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In times like these, it’s always wiser to consult another translation, in this case, Bhikkhu Bodhi’s:

Agitation and a constellation of mental states born of preoccupation with the change of consciousness remain obsessing his mind.

I think Bhikkhu Bodhi’s following the commentaries to read (dhamma)samuppāda as “phenomenon arising together” / “Arising of Dhammas” (Chaṭṭhī tappurisa compound). So he has “a constellation of mental states”. Which makes more sense to me, given the context.

Bhikkhu Sujato’s interpretation makes sense given the context of the sutta (Kinda of a Bahuvrīhi reading? Or maybe Tatiyā/Saptamī-tappurisa?), but I still feel like I prefer Bhikkhu Bodhi’s better.

@stephen would nerd out better here than I. :slight_smile:

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Ah, this makes more sense. Thank you!

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Moreover this isn’t an isolated case for his use of this English phrasing. One might use the search engine to examine the other ones and find a common rationale, for example. That’s what helps me :slightly_smiling_face:

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Are you asking about this sentence?

Tassa rūpavipariṇāmānuparivattijā paritassanā dhammasamuppādā cittaṁ pariyādāya tiṭṭhanti.

or the next?

Cetaso pariyādānā uttāsavā ca hoti vighātavā ca apekkhavā ca upādāya ca paritassati.

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This one. :slight_smile:

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Had a dickens of a time finding the Pali Text Society volume and page number. Finally found this converter, and by randomly selecting PTS volume and page numbers, was able to find SN 22.7:

The passage you are quoting could be any one of several, in that sermon. Here’s an example of the passage in connection with the body:

“And how does grasping lead to anxiety? It’s when an unlearned ordinary person has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve not seen true persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the true persons. They regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form. But that form of theirs decays and perishes, and consciousness latches on to the perishing of form. Anxieties occupy their mind, born of latching on to the perishing of form, and originating in accordance with natural principles. So they become frightened, worried, concerned, and anxious because of grasping.”

(tr. Bhikkyu Sujato)

Checking PTS SN Vol. III p 17, I find the following translation of that passage:

And how, brethren, is there grasping and worry? Herein, brethren, the untaught many-folk, … regard the body as the self, the self as having body, body as being the self, the self as being in the body. Of such a one the body alters and becomes otherwise. Owing to the altering and otherwiseness of the body, his consciousness is bound with the altering body. From this being busied with the altering body, worried thoughts arise and persist, laying hold of the heart. From this laying hold of the heart he becomes troubled, and owing to vexation and clinging he is worried. He regards feeling as the self, the self as having feeling… (so also with perception… the activities… and consciousness). Thus, brethren, comes grasping and worry.

(tr PTS SN vol III, p 17, italics added)

I took a guess at what was the particular sentence you were questioning, in this translation (in italics). “Owing to vexation and clinging”, could that have been “originating in accordance with natural principals” in Sujato’s translation?

There are a pair of footnotes, in Woodward’s PTS translation (from 1925).

On “his consciousness is busied”, the note is “anuparivatti, mind is occupied with the petty concerns of the body.”–”Of the name as term and concept.”

On “laying hold of the heart”, the note is “pariyadaya titthanti”; “make an impression on” is just not forceful enough. “Having laid hold of (him) they persist”.

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Just as an FYI, our own search feature gets you there too, although this particular search is kind of wonky.

https://suttacentral.net/search?query=volpage:sn+iii+17

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Snowbird, I had to guess to figure out the SN III 17 part of it, working backwards to get the given “SN22.7”.