Any practical tips for giving up eating at night as advised by The Buddha?

The Watercooler
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Its not so hard doing Eight Precepts and fasting from noon, while staying at a Wat, with the structure and time to slow down, burn less calories and meditate.

In daily life back at home or when traveling its more challenging.

A Middle Way of not eating at night on eg five or more nights per week, seems more realistic. The Buddha recommended not eating at night to his bhikkus.

You too should abstain from eating at night. Doing so, you’ll find that you’re healthy and well, nimble, strong, and living comfortably. MN 70

Presumably it was later the rules got even more restrictive with no eating after noon?

Even in the Buddhas day abstaining from eating at night wasn’t easy with some rebellious bhikkus showing the resistance to giving up meals:

“Reverends, we eat in the evening, the morning…
Doing so, we find that we’re healthy and well, nimble, strong, and living comfortably.
Why should we give up what is apparent in the present to chase after what takes effect over time?
We shall eat in the evening … MN 70 ”

Well if it was hard for bhikkus its much harder for lay followers.

Some studies may support the Buddhas dietary advice in certain aspects for some people at some times: Time-restricted Eating 2022

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Possible benefits of Time Restricted Eating do indeed seem to occur with eating early and fasting in the evening. The benefits seem to take three months to appear, as the rebellious monks complained of.

Please share any practical tips for a longer overnight fast on most days?

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This is the same as ‘vikala bhojana’.

There are certain items monastics can take in the evening to help with some extra calories and energy if this is truly your problem. If you’ve stayed in a temple you probably know some of these items.

Often I think that in the world people are looking for their next hit of sensory stimulation, especially after being in the stimulating world all day and food can provide this comfort.

The Buddha recommended keeping the uposathas, which is 1 or 2 nights a week on the 8 precepts.

The middle way is the eightfold path, not a excuse for when things seem to hard. Use your own wisdom. How is keeping the eight precepts/vikala bhojane benefiting you and how is it hindering your ability to practice the dhamma? When you can reflect on this again and again you will know for yourself what is the right course of action to take.

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Thats very insightful. It follows that not eating in the evening can be useful for revealing habitual clinging and cravings. With hunger adding to sensual craving, its not an easy practice.

The Suttas and Vinaya with the lived experience of Venerables must have a pragmatic wisdom base to deal with food cravings, without relying on “allowables”.

Are there specific practices that help?

Maybe

  • recollections
  • determinations
  • Sutta recitals
  • Specific sati or samadhi meditation techniques designed for intense hunger and cravings?

Any hints from anyone would be welcomed. Thanks.

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Not a monastic, but I practice fasting extensively, sometimes cutting all food for several days in a row, usually just cutting meals after noon.

What works for me, may not work for you, etc. But one of the things I’ve noticed is that blood sugar is somehow a key to hunger being painful or easy to endure. Eating a meal with low protein and high carbs makes hunger insufferable, even with mental tricks. Having a good amount of protein (at least around 20g with the meal) works really well for me.

Likewise, if I fall off the wagon, and eat senselessly for a few days, it takes me a couple of days to get back in the zone. So usually, first 2-3 days is the hardest. After that, body finds it’s own rhythm. Most people can’t even make it past that stage though.

Any type of light activity, just walking, very light exercise is great to reduce stress and hunger levels. Just pacing languidly around the house if I can’t do anything else. Shaking off the limbs and so, nothing big. Crazy how much tension you release just by very little physical movement.

Finally, it’s making peace with the hunger. Not trying to run away from it, or distracting yourself from it, but treating it as an earned gift. If the hunger makes me unable to focus on a task at hand, if I need to take a pause, I cherish that as a moment of meditation. It’s a subtler, more refined way of experiencing life, without chasing food. Each moment of hunger is another moment of mastery and self control, and is worthy of celebration. This can turn into a beautiful recursive feedback loop for a very peaceful state. This can even shift in seeing the fed state as agitated and restless, and the fasting state as peaceful.

Meditating on the hunger is a great thing. Feeling your body feed on its own reserves, feeling it’s strength, realizing that your constant need to eat is a fabrication of the mind - so on and so forth. Being hungry is a great time to meditate on hunger, self and others’ hunger. It’s a great way to generate compassion. Hunger is an important thing to analyse and understand - and what better time to do it, but when hungry?

It is never invisible. It is a different state than a fed state. Expecting to be or performing just like fed when hungry, is a mistake. Not even necessarily better/worse, just different (although, many mystics would argue it is indeed better to be hungry).

Of course, this isn’t medical advice, and you should seek actual professional advice on these things. But just my experience with fasting. Hope it helps. :slight_smile:

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During the day, some light walking meditation can be helpful, or occupying your mind with recollection - contemplation (anussati) on the dangers of food, as discussed in texts like SN 12.63 on Aharas.

Alternatively,

one can contemplate eating as Dukkha (suffering). the risk every beings has to take during endless wandering in Samsara.

Dukkha on the following :

1)Consider hunger as an incurable sickness inherent to all beings wandering in Samsara. While other ailments may be cured with medicine, hunger is ceaseless; even after consuming food, it inevitably returns.

2)Reflect on the immeasurable quantities of food consumed across countless lives throughout endless wandering in Samsara. cartloads ? trucks ? mountains ? when will this will be enough?
the amount we eaten,
our stomach as bottomless pit,regardless how many foods we take ,there never enough.. ( hungry-eat-hungry-eat - endless repetition) as we wander in Samsara.

3)The entire process of seeking,obtaining ,and preparing food—planting, buying, and cooking,—is itself a form of Dukkha.

4)Furthermore, there is danger (adinava) in eating: too much causes discomfort, illness, and other harms, while too little prevents proper functioning.

for layperson since we have busy schedule,activities maybe some tea with some light amount of sugar/honey can be drink after mid-day.

Mettacittena,
Qzl

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As a monastic of some years I just got sick of evening allowables and stopped taking them.

What was more interesting though, was when I moved monasteries and was no longer required to come for breakfast I quit breakfast and moved to one 11am meal. I still had to work the physical work I was doing before. At first I was taking some milo before I started. However, I noticed that my body learned after about a month how to partition the energy and I could do all the physical work I needed (wood working, construction, even wood chopping) on an empty stomach. If I broke this routine and had breakfast for a few days then I had to work back through the lethargy and weakness for a few weeks before my body would go back to normal.

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wow, impressive. The one meal needs to be some 2000 calories to keep a normal weight, no?

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Well, if you’re not working very hard and are meditating a lot, the caloric need goes down. But yes, many monks will inevitably stretch their stomachs out a bit and get used to eating a rather large amount in one sitting.

The human body is amazingly adaptable!

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I’m a bit hesitant about the fasting and the not eating in the evening tbh (i.e. for lay people - for monastics that’s obviously a different story). It can be a good exercise and it’s worthwhile observing what fasting does to the body and to the mind.

However, we don’t need to be all Jaina-ish when it comes to eating. We need food to function and if we have a busy lay life - all the more.
I think the difference is clearly about craving food for its taste or eating food to be healthy and well-nourished throughout the day.

If you’d eat plain green salad or rice without salt or sauce, in short, nothing that makes you want to have more, then it should be fine. One can also get attached to food by not eating if your thoughts revolve around it constantly.

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I wouldn’t call a practice endorsed by the Buddha Jainish. This is still getting all your nutrients etc- it’s not starvation.

Just like some people don’t eat breakfast, others don’t eat dinner. There’s nothing extreme about that.

Most cultures have the ‘best’ food at dinner, so it’s just about adapting.
It is not particularly practical for most lay people though, which is why the Buddha suggests keeping the 8 precepts on the uposatha.
If you have a medical need to eat in the evening then that is different. However, for most people it’s is just habit and cultural conditioning which causes them to think that this is an extreme practice.

Like any change in diet, it takes a while for the body to adapt and there is discomfort.

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These seem to be contemplations on the repulsiveness of nutriment. Further contemplations can be found in Chapter XI of the Visuddhimagga and in Venerable Ledi Sayadaw’s A Manual of Nutriment. Per AN 7.49, the antidote for craving for tastes is development of the practice of the perception of the repulsiveness of nutriment

Dogen’s advice to reflect on the benefits of refraining from overindulgence in food is in line with the Dhamma, e.g. MN 3 and AN 8.80. Reflecting on these benefits could be seen as identical to cultivating the perception of the repulsiveness of nutriment, or it could be seen as a helpful adjunct to cultivating that perception—helpful, in any case.

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Not eating in the evening as recommended by the Buddha means there is plenty of eating time eg 12hours for eating and 12 hours for not eating. Its really balanced. There is even time for the standard three meals if an early dinner eg at 17:45hrs can be scheduled.

As far as research goes a 12hr hour early eating window fast has possible benefits, but it seems like 8-10hrs is better for the usual over-nourished Westerners (74% of US adults exceed recommended weight and the epidemic keeps growing).

Thanks for the gems. Sadhu :anjal:

An Ajahn told me stop doing meditations on repulsiveness. I don’t know if that’s general for lay meditators? The suttas have warning teachings on the dangers, even for bhikkus, doing that style of practice.

Thats simple and also profound. Thanks.

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It was likely personal advice—not a blanket statement that all lay practitioners, at all levels of development and in all situations should avoid asubha practice.

SN 54.9, MN 145, and Bu Pj 3 all refer to the same story about the dangers of improperly practiced asubha. Are there others?

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No. Six hours. Sunrise to noon.

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I’m not monastic, and I don’t play one on T.V..

I’m just trying to improve my weight and my health, but not eating after dinner. That is the hardest time for me to not eat.

I find that doing something to relax helps, like a long sit near bedtime.

Some herbal teas will also provide relaxation and make it easier to fall asleep on an empty stomach. Camomile, lavender, and lemon balm are a few out of the many. If that seems too close to “eating” for you, you can take those same herbs in capsule form.

Optimally, you want to avoid store bought teabags - microplastics.

Buy a few ounces in bulk. Pour 1 cup ( 8 fluid ounces ) of boiling water over each 5 grams of herbs. Let it site for at least 30 minutes. You can also let it sit overnight and refrigerate it.

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For lay followers 12hrs feeding time is easier.

It looks like the Buddha initially advised the time of restricted eating to start with just an overnight fast?

At one time the Buddha was wandering in the land of the Kāsis together with a large Saṅgha of mendicants. There the Buddha addressed the mendicants:

“Mendicants, I abstain from eating at night. MN 70

I wonder just how early on he was “wandering in the land of the Kāsis” and when the stricter dawn to noon Vinaya rule was laid down?

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Hi Jara,

A lay follower can, of course, make their own decisions for what they do in daily life.

However, if you were doing a retreat at a monastery, you would were generally be expected to follow the rules that the monastics there are following.

The vinaya only allows eating between sunrise and noon. Some drinks are allowed after noon and some other things may also be allowed, depending on how the monastics there interpret the vinaya. Also, even for monastics, there are exceptions for medical reasons.

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A lay follower who keeps the 8 precepts would be keeping Vikala bhojana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami which is eating dawn until noon. Which is 6-8 hours unless you move to Norway for half the year (13.5hrs) and Southern Argentina the other half (9,5hrs)

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vikāla-bhojana-vairamaṇaṃ śikṣāpadam samādade (sanskrit for the above Pāli) doesn’t mean “eating from dawn till noon” but - “I undertake/adopt (samādade) the training (śikṣāpadam) to avoid (vairaṃaṇa) untimely (vikāla) meals (bhojanam)”. However the word used for untimely (vikāla) is often used in the sense of ‘evening’.

Normally it is mentioned as part of a minor-precept (cūḷa-sīla in Pāli, kṣudra-śīla in Skt) - for example in the DN1#1.10.3:
Pāli - Ekabhattiko samaṇo gotamo rattūparato virato vikālabhojanā
Sanskrit - ekabhaktikaḥ śramaṇo gautamo rātroparato virato vikālabhojanāt
Eng - Surviving on a single-meal a day (eka-bhaktikaḥ), this ascetic Gautama (śramaṇo gautamaḥ) desists (uparata) from eating at night (rātra) and has stopped eating (bhojanād virataḥ) untimely/evening (vikāla) meals.

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We can see the definition of vikālo in the vinaya here
At the wrong time:
Vikālo nāma
when the middle of the day has passed, until dawn.
majjhanhike vītivatte yāva aruṇuggamanā.

This doesn’t speak to the ekabhattiko (one meal eater) which is a dhutanga (ascetic) practice.

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