Ardent, Alert, and Mindful

Discussion
1

Ardent, Alert, and Mindful.

I see that phrase a lot in the suttas when describing meditation.

It never seemed right to me, as I always thought of meditation as being relaxed and alert. You are fully awake, quiet, and chill, patiently watching as something arises for you to notice it.

“ardent, alert, and mindful” sounds like a stress party! :slight_smile:

I tried using the neat tool on suttacentral.net to see what the dictionary definitions of the Pali words are. A bit difficult as the Pali doesn’t map word for word to the English. I used SN 47.41 on accesstoinsight.org and suttacentral.net to try to find the Pali words whence “ardent”, “alert”, “mindful” came from.

So, I think “ardent, alert, mindful” come from

Atapi, sampjana, satima

“Atapi” - came straight out of the dictionary tool as “ardent”.

“Sampajana” - came out as “thoughtful”

“Satima” - came out as “thoughtful” or “careful”

So, “ardent, alert, mindful” can also be translated as

“ardent, thoughtful, careful”

– not much more in line with meditation experience on the group, but a bit better.

Back to “relaxed and alert”

Thoughts?

1 Like
2

Hi @jhana4,

reading a few of your messages from several different threads, I understand where you’re coming from, in terms of finding how “negative” aspects of the EBT are off putting and not helpful to practice.

The truth is, there are many positive aspects, and many perceived negative aspects in the EBT. The perceived negative aspects cease to seem negative once there is a basic level of understanding (in terms of both theory and practice). It’s best not to try to retranslate the EBT to fit our current state of understanding, but to try to understand the EBT on its terms, and in the mean time focus on metta and whatever positive aspects one finds helpful and wait for understanding to catch up for the perceived negative aspects to make sense. Put aside things the teachings that seem negative or unhelpful for the time being. No matter what you choose as the english words to translate the perceived negative methods and teachings in the EBT, there’s no getting around the fact that’s they are there and they are very powerful and visceral.

I personally don’t appreciate it when English translators try to soften certain words too much that it doesn’t capture the context and actual meaning of the technique presented in the EBT.

If anything, I found Thanissaro undersells the “negative” in his teachings. Probably because he knows he’s dealing with a western audience with their particular complexes, psychosis, baggage from western religions.

There’s no getting around that in the EBT, the Buddha expects people to develop extreme mental toughness, resilience, assiduity, ardency. No amount of spin and using soft translation terms can hide the context of the situations and scenarios that he’s describing.

8 Likes
3

If that is the case then I think it is a failure of the contemporary English translations. If so many people are misunderstanding Buddhism from the translations, than the translations and commentaries that come with it are inadequate.

In that regard, my understanding is that Ajahn Sujatos translations were done with the ordinary person ( rather than the academic ) in mind. That makes me hopeful and eager to see the finished product.

I could not disagree more. I enjoy his translations. Reading his essays, I think his emphasis of the negative is an outgrowth of who he is as a person ( with no disrespect meant to him ). I’ll it there, since this is a subjective matter that can’t be settled.

“Spin”. There is a difference between what Jack Kornfield and Tara Brach do, and the desire to see English translations of the Suttas that take into account how people actually use ( in definition and connotation ) English vocabulary.

Happy Friday

4

I prefer “keen”.

5

To me, both terms sound the same.

Ardent = very enthusiastic or passionate.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=ardent+meaning&oq=ardent+meaning&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.9677j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

6

Yes, and there are other important techniques. For example the Buddha recommended walking meditation to overcome fear and dread. And there is the meditation on the 32 parts of the body, which requires directed attention or visualization, not just passive attention to the random stream of thoughts. And then there is charnal ground or other death meditation.

In the suttas, we see that the monks in training are directed to go into the woods and meditate in solitude. It’s scary out there: snakes, monkeys, predatory cats, rhinos … plus your various woodland spirits and goblins. Achieving total chill in these circumstances is the goal, but there is a long process of training to deal with hair-raising obstacles before one gets there.

At all stages the training requires effort and application. Initially, just directing the mind back to some meditation object as it wanders requires much effort. But after that gets easier, advancing beyond the current state of absorption to a deeper level requires similar effort.

Since I don’t have a handy charnal ground, I try to employ visualization techniques where I try to contemplate and vividly visualize some of my deepest fears: for example, my house burning down, being buried alive, seeing my loved ones die and watching their bodies decay, visualizing my own face in a state of decay, etc.

8 Likes
7

Regarding walking meditation to overcome “fear and dread” I assume you are referring to Bhayabherava sutta (MN 4), in which the Buddha says:

“While I walked, the fear and dread came upon me; I neither stood nor sat nor lay down till I had subdued that fear and dread. While I stood, the fear and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor sat nor lay down till I had subdued that fear and dread. While I sat, the fear and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor stood nor lay down till I had subdued that fear and dread. While I lay down, the fear and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor stood nor sat down till I had subdued that fear and dread."

Here, it sounds like he is saying that when fear and dread come up, you should practice remaining in the same posture until they pass (whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down). Is there another place where walking meditation is specifically recommended? (sorry to be nitpicky)

I have tried this, but found it challenging to get the mind to actually stick with it!

8

Yes, it is challenging! Very worthwhile though. Gradually you grow more accustomed to looking at your own impermanence. I also try to imagine my house and neighborhood going into a state of utter ruin: vines growing everywhere, the wood rotting, bricks crumbling, no people, animals and birds scurrying in and out.

3 Likes
9

Capala Sutta, for drowsiness. Also see Cankama Sutta for benefits of walking.

2 Likes
10

AN 5.29, AN 8.63, AN 3.63, AN 4.11, AN 4.12, AN 3.16

AN 3.16 and AN 8.63 are particularly important. AN 3.16 gives details on sleep schedule, proper way to eat.
AN 8.63 shows the convergence of 4bv, 4sp, 4 jhānas, in all 4 postures.

3 Likes
11

Ardent is specifically described in SN16.2:

  1. How is one ardent:

"And how, friend, is one ardent?
Here, friend, a bhikkhu arouses ardour by thinking: ‘If unarisen evil unwholesome states arise in me, this may lead to my harm’; and by thinking: ‘If evil unwholesome states that have arisen in me are not abandoned, this may lead to my harm’; and by thinking: ‘If unarisen wholesome states do not arise in me, this may lead to my harm’; and by thinking: ‘If wholesome states that have arisen in me cease, this may lead to my harm.’ Thus he is ardent.”

  1. How is one NOT ardent

“Here, friend, a bhikkhu does not arouse ardour by thinking: ‘If unarisen evil unwholesome states arise in me, this may lead to my harm’; nor by thinking: ‘If evil unwholesome states that have arisen in me are not abandoned, this may lead to my harm’; nor by thinking: ‘If unarisen wholesome states do not arise in me, this may lead to my harm’; nor by thinking: ‘If wholesome states that have arisen in me cease, this may lead to my harm.’ Thus he is not ardent.”

This is directly related to right effort, i.e. the four right strivings (SN49.1, SN49.35 or SN49.54):

“What four?
Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhus generates desire for the nonarising of unarisen evil unwholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates desire for the abandoning of arisen evil unwholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates desire for the arising of unarisen wholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates desire for the maintenance of arisen wholesome states, for their nondecay, increase, expansion, and fulfilment by development; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. These are the four right strivings.”

This also fits neatly with the 7 factors of enlightenment (SN46.3):

  • #1 Mindfulness allows:
  • #2 Discrimination of states (kusala vs akusala dhamma) leads to or implies:
  • #3 Energy

Dwelling thus mindfully, he discriminates that Dhamma with wisdom, examines it, makes an investigation of it. […] While he discriminates that Dhamma with wisdom, examines it, makes an investigation of it, his energy is aroused without slackening.

So for me, ardent in “ardent, alert, and mindful” is a reference to the effort one’s make to abandon unwholesome qualities and cultivate good ones. Outside meditation, it might means the use of real physical effort (like getting out of bed to be ‘devoted to wakefulness’ and not slothful). In meditation, I interpret it as a more subtle effort applied to my mental states (like maintaing awareness and not drifting into day-dreaming; consciously relaxing my muscles etc).

But I am uncertain about something though… An effort is something we can control with an act of will; while energy is not controlable by an act of will (at least not for me), it is something we have or don’t have and we can only control the conditions for its arising (food, sleeping habits, etc).
So does the Buddha 1) implies that thinking about the harm induced by an akusala dhamma is the cause for the arousal of energy within oneself OR 2) suggests that this thinking should motivate us to make an effort/arouse energy?

Based on my personal experience I would go for option 2 for now, but the texts seem to imply option 1. Any thoughts?

6 Likes
12

I think both are implied. Often our mind knows something is good for us and we can see the mind trying not to accept that and incline towards indolence or laziness or ignorance (of that truth). Forcing our mind to turn towards the dangers of akusala helps overcome that tendency, and when samma sati and samma vayamo are working well, we naturally do part 1 of automaticaly getting a little adrenaline rush and seeing danger in the slightest fault.

That’s a very interesting interpretation, I’ve thought similar things. Ven. Thanissaro sometimes talks about breathing in 16 APS (anapana) with certain body parts as the center of focus that can stimulate energy naturally. It’s never worked for me, but others say it works for them. I have to switch to walking meditation and walk at a brisk pace for about 20 min. to get the heart rate up.

SN 46.52 says
(> 3. Vīriya bojjhanga)

:diamonds: “yadapi, bhikkhave,
15“Whatever bodily energy there is,
kāyikaṃ vīriyaṃ tadapi vīriyasambojjhaṅgo,
is the enlightenment factor of energy;
yadapi cetasikaṃ vīriyaṃ tadapi vīriyasambojjhaṅgo.
whatever mental energy there is,
‘vīriyasambojjhaṅgo’ti iti hidaṃ uddesaṃ gacchati.
is also the enlightenment factor of energy.
tadamināpetaṃ pariyāyena dvayaṃ hoti.
Thus what is spoken of concisely as the enlightenment factor of energy becomes,
by this method of exposition,
twofold.

2 Likes
13

This business of “ardency” probably needs to be contextualised to the stage of one’s practice.

The SN 16.2 stage strikes me as addressing the stage at which one is struggling with sila, given how the ardency is discussed in a pair with anottappa.

At the other extreme, you have MN 31 where the arahant Anuruddha asserts that he is ātāpī etc, but his idea of “ardency” is shockingly lax.

Somewhere in between, you have a slightly different formulation in the context of meditation, eg the kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā pericope.

Can you see that all the 4 adjectives anupassin, ātāpin, sampajāna and satima have been declined into nominatives? When this happens, these adjectives of possession become transformed into substantive nouns signifying the person possessed of and endowed with such qualities.

Interestingly, here’s a couple well-known -in stem adjectives in the nominative - sakadāgāmī and anāgāmī. Are these persons “doing” any once-returning and non-returning?

Sometimes it really pays to get past the translation and dive into the weird, weird world of the Indian mind.

2 Likes
14

So for you what does it imply to be endowed with ardency?

15

It depends on the contexts, for which i examined 3.

The MN 31 context of an ardent arahant who has nothing more to work on is one end of the scale; SN 16.2 is another. The one in the middle has the absolutive vineyya.

1 Like
16

Hi again Yasoja

I’ve been examining other instances of the occurrence of the concept of ātāpī ottāpī (ardent and scrupulous) that occurs in SN 16.2.

AN 4.11 agrees with SN 16.2. However, something odd happens in the next sutta -

Carato cepi, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno abhij­jhāb­yāpādo vigato hoti, thinamiddhaṃ … uddhac­ca­kukkuc­caṃ … vicikicchā pahīnā hoti, āraddhaṃ hoti vīriyaṃ asallīnaṃ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ, carampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṃbhūto ‘ātāpī ottāpī satataṃ samitaṃ āraddhavīriyo pahitatto’ti vuccati.

Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu has gotten rid of longing and ill will while walking; if he has abandoned dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt; if his energy is aroused without slackening; if his mindfulness is established and unmuddled; if his body is tranquil and undisturbed; if his mind is concentrated and one-pointed, then that bhikkhu is said to be ardent and to dread wrongdoing; he is constantly and continuously energetic and resolute while walking : AN 4.12

Notice the difference? AN 4.11 has the meditator “doing” sense restraint as it were, but AN 4.12 points to the meditator simply “being” concentrated. The quality of ardency and scrupulousness exist for that person on the basis of this quality -

upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ

his mindfulness is established and unmuddled; his body is tranquil and undisturbed; his mind is concentrated and one-pointed

Here are some of the other contexts in which this quality pops up -

SN 35.134 : sense restraint having been perfected
AN 3.130 : exercising the supernormal powers
MN 28 : referring to the simile of the saw and goodwill when attacked
MN 4, MN 19 and AN 8.11 : on the cusp of the First Jhana

It does not appear to me that the person is “doing” anything to be ardent any longer. He/she is simply ardent on account of endowment of good qualities or freedom from the Hindrances.

Which is why I am not so sure if “ardent” is really such a good rendering for ātāpin. That choice just does not have enough breadth to capture the bhāva (condition) of being -

(1) freed (albeit temporarily) from the Hindrances; or
(2) dwelling in an immeasurable state of mind.

4 Likes
17

A long time after the OP but Ayya @Santacari, @Bhikkhu_Jayasara, myself and some of our dhamma friends where discussing atapi in the context of ‘one excellent night’ MN131. I mentioned that keen was the current suggestion 'round these parts. Bhante J mentioned that keen isn’t a common word in the US. It’s more an Aussie/UK thing.

We then got onto the firey aspect of atapi and the group agreed that ‘fired-up’ worked well for them.

Just thought I’d add this to the conversation.

:pray:

4 Likes
18

How should we understand the atapin arahant in MN 31?

19

Tapas, as not in the food, but asceticism in burning off bad kamma was common and probably commonly known about. The word might have been in common usage. In the dhamma it meant burning off defilements (- commonly seen with pahana and samatikkama). But for the lay folk it might have been just a word denoting meditation- which the arahanth did as well for pleasant abiding. So Pali being the broad language it is, and also the possibility that this is not a technical term the issue might be clarified, in this manner. :face_with_monocle:

With metta

1 Like
20

I like that. You’re right, “keen” to Americans, at least to me, just has the connotation of being very interested. Atapi in EBT is much more intense from context.

1 Like