"Although a noble disciple has given up the five lower fetters, they still have a lingering residue of the conceit ‘I am’, the desire ‘I am’, and the underlying tendency ‘I am’ which has not been eradicated. After some time they meditate observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates.
So aparena samayena pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassī viharati—
*‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form. * Such is feeling … Such is perception … Such are choices … Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’ As they do so, that lingering residue is eradicated"
The question is, this insight here described which uproots asmi mana, is that thoughtless, conceptless, effortless?
Can one in a thoughtless, conceptless way see and know (for example)“such is rupa, such is vedana, such is sankhara?” Can one identity such formations without learning, without conceptualisation, without labeling? I do not think so.
If one does not label anything, what does one see in true vipassana?
I do not understand all those pali words you use, sorry. I am still learning. I also do not really know what is pannattis. It is explained on the web as ideas, concepts conventional truth, names, terms, notions.
I always see sakkaya ditthi’s and asmi mana just as adventitious defilements which arise when the mind is triggered by a sense-object. They have a latent (anusaya) and active side. Sense-objects all the time trigger automatically anusaya’s like mud on the bottom. Anusaya, mud, whirl into the mind, and it deludes the mind. Then mind defiles and wisdom weakens. For example, mind with asmi mana understands and sees things differently then mind without. It has another kind of understanding.
Those defilements are not intrinsic to the nature of mind. Sakkaya ditthi and asmi mana can, according doctrine, both be definitely removed.
the only assocation i have with a ‘direct’ seeing of tilakkhana of formations is that ones state of contemplation, the inner seeing is, that light and strong, so full of light and presence, that arising formations, as it were, immediately dissolve (in that inner light) and formations proove to be insubstantial, without core, not concretely existent, rainbow-like formations. Like an inner sun which immediately dissolves arising clouds. Is true vipassana something like this?
What do you think about SN22.89 which explains how asmi mana ends? Do you think it refers to a thoughtless, effortless, labelless kind of vipassana?
CLARIFICATION ON SAKKAYADITTHI, ASMIMANA & PANNATTI
sakkāya diṭṭhi and asmimāna are realities, paramattha dhammas which arise and fall away. Sakkāya diṭṭhi is the diṭṭhi (cetasika), the wrong view of self which all other kinds of diṭṭhi stem from. Asmimāna is māna cetasika which arises with attachment, taking oneself for important and often comparing with others in some way or other.
Because such realities are common in daily life, there are countless ideas and concepts (paññatti) relating to them. Like now, when we discuss their characteristics, we’re discussing concepts about the realities.
The arahat has no more defilements of any kind. Māna is completely eradicated on becoming an arahat. Sakkāya diṭṭhi and all other kinds of diṭṭhis are eradicated on becoming a sotāpanna.
The cittas of the arahat still think about concepts (paññatti) - about bowls and cups and different people, but without any diṭṭhi, māna or other kilesa (defilements).
The goal of the Teachings is not to stop thinking about concepts but to understand the Truths with leads to the end of saṃsāra.
In between moments of understanding, even vipassanā ñānas, there is thinking of concepts as usuall, but with less and less illusion and wrong view.
WHY ‘PANNATTIM THAPETVA’ IS AN IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF TRUE VIPASSANA BHAVANA
true vipassana is a concept-less, thought-less, label-less, analysis-less, inference-less, effort-less & choice-less awareness of the paramattha sacca realities of nama-rupa ‘as it is’ - yathabhuta nanadassana. or in short, true vipassana is a concept-less (pannattim thapetva) awareness of the reality ‘as it is’. this “pannattim thapetva visesena passati’ti vipassana” is true vipassana.
if any concept (pannatti) becomes the object or objective of meditation then it is not true vipassana. any conceptual meditation practice further re-inforces the ‘doer’ and therefore it further conditions the mind. just as rené descartes, the famous french philosopher said: “cogito, ergo sum” - i think, therefore i am! no wonder why j. krishnamurti emphasized that no technique can de-condition the mind. when the mind works with any concept - the reinforced doer-ship is bound to take the meditator away from true vipassana and it further conditions the mind.
the true vipassana, as taught by sayagyi u ba khin, in accordance with the original teachings of the buddha (as in the mahasatipatthana sutta & other suttas) is not a technique but, merely a process of observation of the reality ‘as it is’. the process of ‘pannattim thapetva visesena passati’ti vipassana’ done through tilakkhananupassana of nama-rupa deeply de-conditions the mind leading to the dissolution of sakkayaditthi at sotapatti-phala stage & asmimana at arahat-phala stage.
at arahathood the four noble truths are completely penetrated and thus, the yathabhuta-nanadassana reaches it finale (suvisuddham ahosi). the arahat may think/interact with the conventional world through pannattis but, he does not form any miccha ditthi, mana or kilesa on the basis of these pannattis.
Oke, but what does de-conditioning of the mind exactly mean? What is a de-conditioned mind?
Does de-conditioning of mind mean ones experiences, thoughts, words and deeds arise now without any cause and condition? In some magical way?
To make things easier, we can divide concepts into correct concepts and wrong concepts.
The correct concept is the result of the perception of reality. The result of this perception refers to objects or minds (psychological aspects) which can be perceived communally in the same way (agreed upon) according to the same station of consciousness (the realm of consciousness).
The wrong concept is in the form of side effects or additions to the perception result. For example, mind and body are recognized through perception, but asmimana is a side effect of additional wrong views (concepts) of mind and body. Another example, the life formations in the stream of rebirth can be seen through strong perception, but there can be a side effect of the wrong concept, namely sakkayaditthi, a view that thinks consciousness is eternal and as a whole.
