Are unkind words wrong speech?

[Brother_Joe]

@Aminah

Would I be right to take it that, to you, it is a misrepresentation to say that the Buddha gave any indication that right timing is a constituent aspect of Right Speech?

Not at all.

I believe he did and believe I have pointed that out elsewhere. If anything, I would like to find clearer indications to the ones I’ve found.

I can’t see how you’d have come to that conclusion from things I have written.

best wishes

[Brother_Joe]

@Aminah

Brother_Joe:

evidence to me is, such clear redefinitions as we find

I’m afraid I don’t quite understand what you mean by this; perhaps you would clarify?

The Buddha is reported to have said: ‘in the training I teach, ‘death’ means giving up a higher training’. I call this a redefinition, of the term ‘death’. I believe it is giving the noble definition, as distinct from the common definition. It is moving focus from what happens to the body to what happens to the mind, which I think is a big part of the Buddha’s teaching, such as ‘I call intention, action (kamma)’. The established religious traditions seemed to have focused on action in this way:

Jain: bodily action, punish the body to purify the soul

Brahminism: verbal action, mantra, perform the ritual with the right mantra to keep the universe running.

[Brother_Joe]

@Brother_Joe

I understand ‘attha’ is also used in the descriptions of the two ends/goals (often translated ‘extremes’) to be avoided.

oops, I believe that was ‘anta’ not ‘attha’. SuttaCentral

[Brother_Joe]

@karl_lew

Several months ago a monk accidentally killed a student he was admonishing. He is no longer a monk, but this is where unkindness leads.

I agree intentional killing (murder) is where unkindness can lead, thought it doesn’t always lead there, obviously.

Unintentional killing would be the result of heedlessness rather than unkindness.

We have not agreed on the definition of kindness yet, so, it’s unlikely we will agree on examples.

best wishes

[Brother_Joe]

@Dhammanando

“The goal”, “the good”, “benefit” and “welfare” have all been used by one translator or another to render the attha in atthasamhita .

great, so ‘at the right time, right place, right circumstances, right receptability etc’ seems a very big stretch.

[Brother_Joe]

@Viveka

I’d just like to make it clear that the Sutta Central Guidelines, including those about Right Speech, are not up for debate.

This thread should be clearly recognised as a general dhamma discussion.

I’m sorry. I seem to have some confusion. I thought we were discussing the basis for the guidelines for the forum, not SuttaCentral.

In any case, if guidelines are not up for open discussion, then it would seem I am participating in the wrong forum and indeed, I have received my second warning, to indicate as much.

In the Dhamma Vinaya of the Buddha, I understand anything is up for discussion.

best wishes

[Brother_Joe]

@Viveka

They are carefully tailored so that no specific skills or affiliations are needed to participate.

I can’t see how that can be possible. You seem to expect skill in kind words as SuttaCentral/discourse forum defines it.

[karl_lew]

@Brother_Joe

We have not agreed on the definition of kindness yet, so, it’s unlikely we will agree on examples.

The words offered indicate a giving up, an unwillingness to share an understanding with one who would learn. It would be kinder for you to explain yourself further to one who would become informed.

There is a question that should be answered definitively. There is a question that should be answered analytically. There is a question that should be answered with a counter-question. There is a question that should be set aside. --dn33/en/sujato

Turning away without an answer would be an un-kindness

I offer my definition of kind words as that which is communicated without harshness as heard by the listener:

Harsh speech is a bad principle. --an10.172/en/sujato

[Viveka]

@Brother_Joe

In the Dhamma Vinaya of the Buddha, I understand anything is up for discussion.

The terms of service for SC /forum are not Dhamma Vinaya.

This forum is for the general public (includes everyone who agrees to terms of service) it is not a monastery or an ordination lineage where the Dhamma Vinaya establishes the Standards of behaviour. It is not a complicated matter.