Are we invoking the right metaphor for “hindrances”?

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Hi @Vstakan,

somewhere down the road the butterfly effect can lead to these imperfections resulting in deaths and wars or just poor Dhamma practice.

I don’t disagree with this in general, and I think many of the ones @sujato has brought up here in Discourse are really good improvements that I’m all for. Well, as I said, a ‘middle way’… But I’m totally with you and others in agreeing that just because something is established doesn’t mean we should keep using it if there’s a translation that is more accurate and also makes things clearer.

For example, I’m very glad that Bhikkhu Bodhi finally changed some of Ñāṇamoli’s translations and there are others he still tends to use that I think really need to go (eg ‘disgust’ for nibbidā; I don’t know for sure it this was Ñāṇamoli’s but as I said in a post in another discussion I think it leads to a lot of unneccesary confusion).

Some translations that have been in use a long time have clearly led to all kinds of strange, and sometimes outright wrong, ideas, so it’s a relief to see some of them being challenged. And I’ve also read some more current ‘creative’ translations (I don’t want to name names :neutral_face: ) which also do that (confuse more than clarify). I guess for me part of it is trying to ascertain that ‘middle way’.

You can actually do without it just fine, but you feel you need something to brighten things up. For a translator, if he’s dedicated to his work, it is almost a physical need :persevere:

And hopefully the translator’s ‘need’ is balanced with taking the whole situation into account :anjal:

Well, as I said in my first post, I happen to like shroud–it’s more visual & evocative than ‘hindrance’ (and seems to keeps the metaphorical sense), even if I don’t necessarily think nīvaraṇa should be translanted like that in all cases.

So yeah, it may be a drag to read ever new translations and guess what they mean…it’s a drag, but it’s a necessary evil, I’m afraid.

Certainly that (something being a drag) shouldn’t be a reason not to use a new translation. And anyway, I solve it for myself by continuing to learn Pali so I can read the suttas just as easily in Pali as I can in English :slight_smile:

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I’ve added Nyanamoli’s late renderings for nibbidā and virāga above, thanks for reminding me.

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I read Bhante’s post on this thread with a certain excitement and delight actually… For me, from a practical point of view…in terms of how I view my practice from within, this was incredibly helpful.

Forgive me if I’m repeating something someone else has said, I’m incredibly busy and so I quickly scanned and skimmed everyone else’s replies and comments. But Bhante’s original post here was just too juicy to not spend the time reading properly!

I’m not sure the word ‘shroud’ actually goes far enough to describe how I was feeling the hindrances as I read this post; a feeling/perception of them which became clearer as I continued to read the post. My imagination came into play as I read and I think the best way for me to share my feelings is to describe what I saw.

I saw myself sunk in a pit of darkness, unable to see. And it was textural, heavy, so it was hard to move. I felt that sinuous, inky tentacles were moving, not just around me, but through my very being; burrowing into my ribs, my heart, my mind. I was trapped there, it felt like there was no way out.

I was delighted in reading this because this is how the nīvaraṇa feel to me and I’d never really seen or realised this to be the case until I read this. Suddenly they and the awesome and aweful power they wield, became more obvious.

I think you are on the right track Bhante. Sensuality, ill will, restlessness - remorse, sloth - topor and doubt are felt experiences; are heavy and fool us into thinking we’re light hearted and free; are so constantly with us that we think the darkness they surround us with is actually bright light.

I feel excited because, to paraphrase that old stock phrase from the EBTs, I think you’re holding up a torch so that those who’ve been in the dark can now see forms. I feel excited because I think you’re coming upon something True, you’re coming upon something the Buddha intended.

And I feel delighted because it totally sings to my experience. It feels real, raw. It has the taste of freedom about it. I’m excited to see how this new perception has an impact on how I view things and consequently practice. Really, words don’t describe how cool this is…I’m going to have to fall back on Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

I think also, coming from my personal experience (as mentioned above) this is a good reason for having different translations and variations about the place. They provide different angles and perspectives and thus quietly chip away at hardened perceptions. Anything that allows perception to become more flexible and free flowing, has to, in my opinion, be something that is conducive to letting go and conducive to developing the process of the 8 fold path as described by the Buddha in the EBTs. I’m not talking about letting go of Right View fuelled perceptions. I’m talking about giving ourselves the chance to let Right View become a lived Right View, rather than something we only ever read about and only ever think about and only ever imagine we know about. I’m guessing, that none of us here really know or feel or experience for sure…but the Buddha did say the Dhamma has the taste of liberation, like the sea has the taste of salt. Well…I smell salt…this is a very salty post by Bhante Sujato.:grin:

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Thanks, I didn’t realize he had changed his late renderings, great.

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BTW…what about using two words? I like the feel of “engulf”…what about “engulfing obstructions”.

I think the only trouble with ‘shroud’ is that it doesn’t give the sense of something calamitously holding one back or keeping one trapped.

I certainly feel “engulfed” by these 5 most of the time!

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I agree, shroud is nice but a little gentle. I mean, the root metaphor is a huge serpent wrapping around you and dragging you to the underworld. It’s kinda intense.

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That’s just very cool. I think that root metaphor is spot on. Now you just have to find a word or two that describes that (lol) and has the exact same degree of intensity!! Hopefully we’re all on the look out for the perfect word now. :grin:

It should be intense. It - the whole being trapped in this world of the five senses and subsequently being trapped in samsara thing - is intense!

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I agree, ‘hindrances’ is not intense enough. Words that came to mind include - shackles, impairments, sabotages, (ruination). But they’re not so great for the application of something short and sweet.

I like shroud in that it signifies a veiling of reality taking you all the way to death or deadly suffering. But perhaps it’s a bit too obscure? Perhaps the only time I’ve heard of it before is the Shroud of Turin!

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It just came to me that the trouble with “hindrances”, for me, is that it gives me the sense of looking forwards and attempting to move forward and something in front of me is trying to stop me moving forward. Like a big burly fellow holding his palms out, or a barrier of some kind standing in front of me.

It gives the illusion that one is free and unencumbered to the left, the right and behind and above and below. But one isn’t. The nature of these 5 is to completely trap you, to hallucinate you so thoroughly that you don’t know you’re in prison, that you don’t realise you’re poisoned, you don’t know that you’re surrounded by enemies disguised often as good friends.

Whatever word is used, there needs to be a sense of being surrounded completely…so I can see why ‘shroud’ is appealing.

I am reminded of a sutta where the Buddha details similies for these 5. I can’t remember them off the top of my head, nor can I remember the sutta(s). But I do remember that they also gave a sense of being engulfed…being engulfed by dullness, surrounded completely and immersed in anger or sensuality, constantly poked and prodded by restlessness and remorse, swamped by doubt. Phew! It’s all a bit scary. Actually, that’s not accurate…it’s all alot scary!!

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I really should be doing other things…but this is just too interesting!!

It occured to me that the solutions the Buddha gave for dealing with these 5, also support the direction that Bhante Sujato is heading in.

Kindness, contentment, investigation, valuing what feels experientially True, the peacefulness of letting things be and being patient, being forgiving and seeking understanding. All these pointers, when practiced, feel like they dissolve something tight, heavy, viscous. I feel that one can’t dissolve something in front of one…a barrier in front. But one can sit still, do very little, have a kind attitude and watch as the darkness around one slowly melts and becomes less solid…the process of dissolving… Well, that’s how I’m currently perceiving it!

For me, right now, it feels like these ‘solutions’ dissolve a 5 headed, viscous, sinuous, musculor, poisonous and magical (in its ability to penetrate your entire being) serpent prison guard that surrounds you so completely that it actually becomes the prison itself.

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Hi @anon29387788,

I am reminded of a sutta where the Buddha details similies for these 5. I can’t remember them off the top of my head, nor can I remember the sutta(s)

You might be thinking of AN 5.193. I find the similes in that suttas far more powerful than any words/names , though I very much like your descriptions, also very evocative in terms of images:

The nature of these 5 is to completely trap you, to hallucinate you so thoroughly that you don’t know you’re in prison, that you don’t realise you’re poisoned, you don’t know that you’re surrounded by enemies disguised often as good friends.

And there’s MN 39, which has similes of what it feels like to have a mind free of the stranglehold of a hindrance (or however we want to translate nīvaraṇa)

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:pray:

Dear Bhante @sujato,

I feel that “engulfed” would be a an excellent new rendering :heart_eyes: and agreeing with @anon29387788. Although I fairly have good command of the English language (because I’ve lived in the US since I was twelve), I am not a native speaker, and I think simplicity will greatly help ESL folks. It really sucks to have to look up a fancy word only to find out there was a much easier word to understand that could have been used for it.

Just an anecdote: When I was in the military (navy), the biggest hurdle was obstructed vision during the voyage day and night. Even with very advanced navigation technology, nothing can beat good ol’ time tested natural vision. Even radar can be affected by weather and sometimes what you think your’e seeing on the panel is actually something else (like a flock of birds registering as aircraft and you’re thinking are those our jets flying over or someone looking for us?):confounded: LoLoL. For safe navigation and safety of the crew, there is nothing more critical than what was literally in front and what surrounds you. Poor vision can lead to collisions with other vessels or other large floating things. When entering shallow water levels, anything that could obscure vision (heavy fog, pollution, silt/muddy water, crowded waterway) was a great danger, could cause the ship to run aground and would lead to structural damage to the vessel (sometimes, they blame poor mapping but it’s mostly human error or lack of good judgement). Or even worse, hit something that could explode and there you go, poop just hit the fan (not a fun experience being in a hot zone):grimacing:

Another thing I could share is that being on a ship, all crew must know how to fight fires to salvage the ship. Heavy smoke and fire filling a compartment impedes movement for both rescue efforts and containing the fire. Thermal imaging devices must be used to see through the smoke to plot a safe path. Lack of vision during firefighting is not fun, even when you’re just doing drills to be ready for the actual deal.:anguished:

If I may say: For a long time, the heavy darkness of the pañca nīvaraṇa has engulfed and obstructed the path leading to safety. The Buddha has lit the bright torch of Dhamma, so that we may use it to dispel the darkness obstructing our vision, enabling us to take sure and steady steps on the path, till we have arrived safely on the other side of the trail.:sunglasses:

Just my thoughts.

with reverence, respect, and gratitude,
russ

:pray:

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Thanks @Linda

These are completely awesome similies. :relaxed:

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I’m not entirely sure about it, but what about “entrapments” as another option?

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Will those folks also have never heard a Dhamma talk or read a book on the Dhamma in which the hindrances are likely to have been addressed?

For my own two pence worth, I agree there is real potential value in disrupting settled ideas about translations and meanings, but at the same time do think that the concern of opening the door to the unhelpful kind of confusion needs to be properly weighed.

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What about “obfuscations”… I guess I can only think of clunky words, here.

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Why not ‘fog’ or ‘mist’? It engulfs you, it obfuscates the vision (thanks to @daverupa who gave me this idea), there is fog of war, there if even for of ignorance, it is more somber and unfriendly than ‘shroud’. Not as powerful in its connotations as Cara’s suggestion, but pretty workable.

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As a noun it’s pretty good but it doesn’t work as a verb.

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True. ‘Clouded by fog’, then? Or just clouded?

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40

How about ‘bog’? Bogged by ignorance.

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