Asavas as influxes

He does - asava must mean out-flow - why? All that flows in is sense data - including mind-data (mind being the sixth sense). Asavas cannot flow in because things get tainted after they are subjected to greed, hatred and, ignorance. If asavas were ‘out there’ then an Aryan would not be able to avoid tainted stuff entering through their sense doors - as they are receiving the same - or similar inputs - as wordlings, from the shared world we receive through the senses.

The asavas are the compulsive movements of the mind that are fuelled by the defilements. They have their influence on mental activity and may or may not find expression through words and deeds. A mind that is completely at peace is free of asavas - IMO. This is how it was explained to me by Ajahn Brahm!

Or, could they be flowing-in from the unconscious continuum? Flowing into and, discolouring the chittas on the conscious level? In that case we would have an influx and an out-flow - that must be it? They cannot be coming from the raw sense-datum through the five external sense doors.

Wait a minute! There might be a problem there as well? Do Arahants have an unconscious continuum? I have heard that they don’t? Can a scholar clarify this question in the light of ‘earlier teachings’? Maybe Abhidhamma or earlier if possible?

The asavas could not be stored somewhere as that would be like the Mahayana concept of ‘storehouse consciousness’. The earlier teachings about the unconscious continuum do not include a ‘storehouse’ model.

Something/anything cannot be defiled until it is related to in an unwholesome way. Surely, the influence of the three-roots is a reactive process with regard to arising and passing sense data? Perhaps the asavas are created and pass away on the spot - like everything else? This has important implications with regard to the nature of dukkha?

We cannot say that dukkha is an inherent property of existence if we accept my basic premise. Dukkha is dependently arisen - not ‘existence’ is ‘dukkha’! Existence is just existence - that should cause a bit of controversy - I hope?

It may be a 3-step process? The reaction that is the ‘result’ (vipaka) of past ‘intentions’ (kamma) exists in relation to ‘contact’ with six forms of sense datum and, then the asavas are created on the spot - they then pass away - and the process is then repeated ad-nauseum? :slightly_smiling_face:

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I edited my reflective process in the last comment. Re-read it and then reconsider your question? There is no ‘storehouse’ model of the unconscious in the EBT’s. This is a Mahayana innovation - the ‘storehouse’ becomes a 7th-consciousness (possibly developed at Nalanda)?

In the early teachings we can surmise the existence of a momentary stream of chittas. Each passing chitta is conditioned by the previous chitta - but it is not the same chitta.

Each new chitta is reconfigured by new inputs through the six sense-doors. Consciousness is granular - an extremely rapid sequence of impermanent happenings. This is connected to the insights regarding rebirth (dependent origination).

There are aspects of these momentarily configured chittas that are conscious but the whole process is only seen by Aryans - to varying degrees.

Our ‘kamma’ may not be kept in ‘seed’ (bhija) form in a storehouse - a subtle-sphere of consciousness. The reference to ‘seeds’ is metaphorical not actual! It becomes actual in the Mahayana.

Our ‘intentions’ are not seeds that are stored in a sphere or consciousness. Seeds that germinate in the field of our life experience. This way of communicating is metaphorical - it is a simile. Our ‘kamma’ (intentions) do not arise preformed from somewhere they are created in a sequential process and then pass away.

There is an interesting parallel between this metaphor and one of JC’s parables. The one where he talks about seeds being sown in different places. Some producing a good harvest and others less so - this parable also has a kammic theme.

When you used the term ‘ripen’ you were using a metaphor - seeds ripen. We can see why the academics at Nalanda had a a lot of fun playing with the seed-notion. It kept the students busy with their assignments. They could then slip off to the cafeteria! :slightly_smiling_face:

‘Effects’ can only be momentary and immediate - that is the only context in which we can directly experience an effect.

It depends on how the chittas are configured as they arise and cease. The Buddha taught that rebirth is like throwing a stick in the air! When it lands it could land on one side or the other. An Aryan has better prospects!

In the Buddha’s teachings it is made clear: you may be saintly in this life but this does not guarantee what the next rebirth will be like. This is why the Buddha adviced us to finish with being and becoming - completely.

The conscious aspects of the momentary chittas gives rise to the quality - the nature - of what we experience. The chittas that are constantly arising and passing away determine what we cognise and perceive. Nothing is being carried-over from the past.

The Buddha taught: the past is but the left behind, the future is the yet unreached. One should see each Dhamma as it arises now - to know that and be sure of that - invincibly, unshakeably!

The seed-metaphor -bhija - may predate the Buddha. It may be Upanishadic and filtered down through different schools. Some - if not all of these orthodox and heterodox traditions - may use the notion in a literal sense.

The Mahayana scholars had a preexisting template on which they could develop their ideas. The yoga-sutras were also taught at Nalanda. It might have been an aspect of their comparative religious studies? I believe the yoga-sutras also includes a seed-theory?

The Buddha also used this word - bhija - as this was a term that resonated with his listeners. I don’t believe the Buddha used it in a literal sense. This becomes clear when you look closely at his teachings on dependent origination, kamma and rebirth.

There is nothing that decides - what happens ‘next’ - it is not a precise process. We can do our best to be good people and we should but there is an element of unpredictabilty in all that we do and all that we experience.

Exactly what kinds of experiences we have tomorrow - or next week - is not a ‘done deal’. That would be fatalism!

In the Buddha’s teachings, there are no absolute determinants in our Kamma that will result in an invariable outcome in the next life. By invariable outcome I mean how things are experienced.

Our suffering is relative to and, conditioned by ‘tanha’ (craving/thirst). An Aryan can be physically beaten and killed and not lose their unshakeable equanimity, loving kindness and, bliss.

There is no problem with being killed - that’s just a flesh-wound. It might be a good ‘vipaka’ (result) to be killed while helping others etc. One that leads to wonderful and exhalted states of being or liberation - if there is a complete letting go.

Clearly, if we view this fathom-long body as a ‘self’ or a personal possession then when it’s recycling time we are going to prevaricate. This fuss and bother won’t make the slightest difference to the ultimate outcome.

This body is fertilizer waiting to happen! It is also a precious tool we can use for awakening. The former and the latter are equally true and interdependent. We need to live in the light of these truths in order to breathe freely - without worry or regret.

Our ‘kamma’ can be purified! If this was not the case, we could never finish with the cycle of rebecoming. Whenever and wherever we let-go - with awareness and a loving heart - we are in the best place we can possibly find ourselves. The rest is for the birds!

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May all beings be liberated!