Avijja/Moha in Kalamasutta

Hello all

In the Kalamasutta, the Buddha doesn’t seem to teach Nibbana. Instead he talks about the four consolations.

He seems to be saying: Eliminate Greed, Hatred and Delusion and you will have done the right thing even if there is no Kamma and Rebirth.

But there seems to be a problem with this: According to almost everybody, Delusion (Moha) is synonimous with Ignorance (Avijja), meaning ignorance of the full Four Noble Truths, including Nibbana, Kamma and Rebirth.

So it seems to me that the Kalamas would be unable to eliminate Delusion without believing in these concepts in the first place.

Could it be argued on these grounds that maybe “Moha” is not full Ignorance, but only Ignorance of the First Noble Truth and/or the Three Marks of Existence?

Thanks, Thomas

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The Buddha doesn’t teach everything to everybody every time. I don’t think we can make conclusions based on what he doesn’t teach. It’s well known that he tailors the content of his sermons to the main audience.

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But he’s saying: Eliminate Delusion and it doesn’t matter if there is Nibbana. How can he say this if eliminating Delusion requires belief in Nibbana?

I don’t think this is the case. When delusion is completely eliminated, all sorts of belief will stop because you don’t need them any more. When you know there is no need to believe (as explained by Citta the householder in SN 41.8).

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I think we should read it as quantitative, not qualitatively.

For example, a person who refrains from stealing, who knows that thievery brings bad results, can be said to be operating amoha in this case.

So, there’s degrees to it, different levels of delusion…

And since the sutta is talking about “Noble Disciple”, it seems to be talking about Stream-Entry. And stream entry doesn’t remove ill-will or delusion completely, yet it’s mentioned here (and ill-will is still present until arahantship, yet the meditators are always said to be abandoning the five hindrances… until they pick them back up again! :smiley: )

I think Kesamutti Sutta of all the suttas, is a most pedagogical one. I read it to briefly say “Focus on getting your act together, realise that there’s deluded ways to act and undeluded ways to act, and don’t worry too much about what happens next.” One step at a time, here and now. :slight_smile: Don’t think we need to formalise it into a strict Abhidhammic framework…

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Well, ultimately, there is a lot of work to be put in towards eliminating delusion. One can start off with certain ideas and beliefs and will end up entirely changed. The real issue is actively working towards eliminating delusion, and not intelectually playing with what it might mean based on what one believes. Even the strongest beliefs end up dropped eventually. There can be no rigidity

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MN 59 is a good example of this. Two were quarreling about what the Buddha taught, who was right and who was wrong. Turns out, they were both right:

“Ānanda, the explanation by the mendicant Udāyī, which the chamberlain Pañcakaṅga didn’t agree with, was quite correct. But the explanation by Pañcakaṅga, which Udāyī didn’t agree with, was also quite correct. In one explanation I’ve spoken of two feelings. In another explanation I’ve spoken of three feelings, or five, six, eighteen, thirty-six, or a hundred and eight feelings. I’ve explained the teaching in all these different ways. This being so, you can expect that those who don’t concede, approve, or agree with what has been well spoken will fight, quarrel, and dispute, continually wounding each other with barbed words. I’ve explained the teaching in all these different ways. This being so, you can expect that those who do concede, approve, or agree with what has been well spoken will live in harmony, appreciating each other, without quarreling, blending like milk and water, and regarding each other with kindly eyes."

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Also, it’s important to consider the teachings in the sutta in the context of the sutta. The Kalamas wanted to know which ascetics or priests to trust. The Buddha told them that their doubt comes from their lack of knowledge and proceeds to give them a teaching tailored to their situation.

Also, if you notice in the sutta, the Kalamas address the Buddha as Gautama. That indicates that they are not followers of the Buddha, which means that he wouldn’t teach nibbana to them.

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This, I don’t understand. SNP in particular are abundant in outsiders asking Buddha things and he talks about crossing the flood of life and death.

They calli him various things, anything from respectable to just an ascetic; “The Peerless Teacher Gotama” in SNP1.9, which seems an upasika spirit could also call him Gotama; and then the Buddha’s called lowlife in another, and in some cases like SNP 1.10, where a capricious spirit that plays games on the Buddha is taught the nibbana metaphor:

“One who is diligent and discerning
gains wisdom by wanting to learn,
having faith in the perfected ones,
and the teaching for becoming extinguished."

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The traditional belief is that as the supreme teacher of people to be tamed, the Buddha knew the best teaching to give to each person. So the fact that he teaches one way to one person and a different way to others is completely unsurprising.

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There are exceptions in the SNP where we find a lot of verse and different structures of stories, but my observation, and I’m not alone in this, is that by and large in the Nikayas, those referring to the Buddha as Gotama are not followers of the Buddha. Yet I admit that I have not studied this or compiled any data on it, it’s just something that I’ve noticed again and again and found interesting. Often it helps me understand a sutta better when I know where an interlocutor is coming from.

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That’s a really interesting observation, it sounds reasonable to me, thanks for that.

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Still I am puzzled by this.

Because the elimination of Greed Hatred and Delusion also equals Nibbana right?

So if Moha is to be understood as comprising the full 4NT, what the Buddha is saying is: Reach Nibbana and it doesn’t matter if there is Rebirth and Kamma.

But Nibbana can only be reached by “seeing” Rebirth and Kamma.

To me this can only mean that Moha is indeed not identical with Ignorance.

My understanding is this is avijja or ignorance as opposed to Moha. When someone reaches stream-entry and they see the 4NT and dependent origination, this is vijja or knowledge and understanding.

I remember Bhante Sujato taught that moha is more of an ‘active force’ that deliberately ‘cloaks or disguises’ your every experience and shapes your perceptions so that you see and experience things as permanent, non-changing and something that the ‘self’ can identify with and take hold of, and causes one to suffer. That’s how I understood it anyway.

I think that’s why non-returners still have that ‘whiff’ of a ‘self’ (which is moha I believe), which prevents then from full enlightenment.

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Makes sense! I was also thinking, maybe along the lines of not seeing emptiness/sunyata.

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I have been looking into this question myself recently. Though I may be making mistakes, I think I have it more or less figured out. As such, I would appreciate any comments/corrections/additions from many the learned Bikkhus and scholars on this site. Many thanks

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Question: Is Moha identical to Avijja?

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The answer is a little more complicated than a straightforward yes or no. TLDR:

There are two different forms or levels of Non-Delusion/Amoha:

  1. Mundane (or Relative) Amoha, leading to a good rebirth, and
  2. Supramundane (or Transcendent) Amoha, leading to Nibbana

Knowledge/Vijja, however, is ALWAYS transcendent, leading to Nibbana (with one notable exception – see Footnote 1 below). As such:

  • Transcendent Amoha IS identical to Vijja (Cessation of Avijja)
  • Relative Amoha IS NOT Vijja. Still some Avijja present, though less than in full Moha

By the same logic:

  • Moha IS Avijja
  • Relative Amoha IS ALSO Avijja
  • Transcendent Amoha IS NOT Avijja, but Vijja

The twofold Relative vs Transcendent division is also applied to Right View/Sammādiṭṭhi in the Suttas, and is extended to the term Wisdom/Paññā in the Abhidhamma (Footnote 2).

However, the Suttas often do not explicitly state which form of Non-Delusion or Right View they are referring to, so one must look to the context to determine this.


Detail:

In the Kalamasutta, AN 3.65, the Buddha teaches a form of Amoha where, as you note, the Four Noble Truths and Nibbana are not known, which leads to good results and a good rebirth. In the very next sutta in the Anguttara Nikaya, however, the Salhasutta, AN 3.66, one of the Buddha’s senior disciples, Nandaka, gives almost exactly the same teaching as that given to the Kalamas, including the very same phrases about Amoha, but the result, rather than a good rebirth, is Nibbana. This seems confusing – what appear to be the same teachings lead to two very different results.

In distinction to the Buddha, however, Nandaka states that by Moha he means Avijja, and by Amoha he means Vijja. The Buddha gives no such equivalence in his teaching to the Kalamas. We should understand, therefore, that Nandaka is describing how he, specifically, is using the term Amoha in that specific context, rather than that Amoha always means Vijja/the ending of Avijja.

  • The Buddha, therefore, is speaking to the Kalamas of Relative Amoha (the implied reason being that those he was teaching were confused uninstructed lay people not yet ready for the deeper teachings);
  • Nandaka, however, is speaking to Salha and his friend of Transcendent Amoha (implicitly because, though laymen, they were children/grandchildren of important Sangha members, and as such were ready for the deeper teachings).

Noting that the term Right View/Sammādiṭṭhi can be used, in some circumstances at least, coterminously with the term Non-Delusion (Amoha) (see the paragraph on the Four Kinds of Action and AN 4.236 below), the Relative vs. Transcendent distinction is set out by the Buddha in MN 117:

Right view is twofold, I say.

There is right view that is accompanied by defilements, partakes of good deeds, and ripens in attachments [this refers to the kind of right view that results in a good rebirth but not liberation. This kind of right view is not specifically Buddhist] .

And there is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path. [This is the right view of one on the noble path… | “Transcendent” (lokuttara) means “leading beyond the world (of transmigration) ”].

- Note: square brackets contain select notes from Bikkhu Su jato

[Note: the term Relative is my own, but I use it because it refers to relatively less delusion than believing that killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying and intoxication will lead to happiness. The term Mundane (Lokiya), though not in the Suttas, is employed in Abhidhamma as the inverse of the Sutta based Transcendent/Supramundane (Lokuttara).]

This twofold division in MN 117 parallels the Buddha’s teachings on The Four Kinds of Action/Kamma. For example, in AN 4.236, the Buddha teaches that “Bright Actions with Bright Results” (meaning happy results here and a good rebirth) are grounded in Right View/Sammādiṭṭhi. It is also to be noted that the way the phrase is structured in this Sutta – “content, kind-hearted, with right view” – clearly parallels the usual framing of “non-greed, non-hatred, and non-delusion”. This demonstrates that in this instance at least, Right View/Sammādiṭṭhi can be equated with Non-Delusion/Amoha. As such, in AN 4.236, Right View/Non-Delusion leads to a good rebirth.

In AN 4.237, however, the Buddha teaches that “Neither-Bright-Nor-Dark Actions with Neither-Bright-Nor-Dark Results, Kamma leading to the destruction of Kamma” (i.e. resulting in Nibbana) are grounded in Right View/Sammādiṭṭhi (this being the first step on the Noble Eightfold Path). So in AN 4.237, Right View/Non-Delusion leads to Nibbana.

The reason for this Twofold Division, as set out in different ways in both MN 117 and AN 4.237, is that:

  • Relative Amoha (leading one to, for example, follow the precepts) is arrived at either with the purpose of achieving good results in this life and a good rebirth (or without that purpose and is simply a basic but naive sense of right and wrong); whilst
  • Transcendent Amoha (leading one to, for example, follow the precepts) is arrived at explicitly with the purpose of following the Noble Eightfold Path, extinguishing defilements, and nibbana.

In relation to the 12 links of dependent origination, e.g. SN 12.1, where it is taught that Ignorance/Avijja drives the whole ongoing process of dependent origination, including good results in this life and a good rebirth, it is clear that where there is Relative Amoha, leading to a good rebirth, Avijja must still be present. However, where there is Transcendent Amoha, leading to the end of kamma and extinguishment, there is no Avijja. Therefore, we may arrive at the following answer to the initial question of whether Moha and Avijja are identical:

  • Moha = Avijja, full
  • Relative Amoha = Avijja, but lesser (logically, one could also conceive of this as Relative Moha)
  • Transcendent Amoha = Cessation of Avijja (i.e. Vijja)

To determine whether Ending Moha = Cessation of Avijja, leading to cessation of Dependent Origination, one must examine the context to determine whether the “Ending” of Moha amounts to Relative or Transcendent Amoha.

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  • Footnote 1: Though as a general rule Vijja is not subject to the twofold division between mundane and transcendent, but is always transcendent, there is at least one exception, at DN 18. This Sutta says that when “Ignorance [Avijja] is given up and Knowledge [Vijja] arises” happiness in this life is the result, and it is clearly in the context of discussing good rebirth. However, this is an unusual Sutta (Bikkhu Sujato’s commentary notes are very useful in providing context), and as such should probably be taken as the exception rather than the rule. Nevertheless, it is a reminder that usage is not always 100 percent consistent, and one should always check the context in which a key term is used. Avijja/Vijja at least CAN be used in the relative sense.
  • Footnote 2: Though not given in the Suttas, the distinction between Mundane/Lokiya and Supramundane/Lokuttara Wisdom/Paññā is explicitly drawn in the Abhidhamma, for instance at Vibhanga 16, under heading 2, Twofold Summary.

This distinction between avijja and moha has been discussed before.

I find what Ven Sunyo says here useful:

Also just highlighting Snp3.12:11.7

Then the Teacher went on to say:
athāparaṁ etadavoca satthā:

“Those who journey again and again,
“Jātimaraṇasaṁsāraṁ,
transmigrating through birth and death; ye vajanti punappunaṁ;
they go from this state to another,
Itthabhāvaññathābhāvaṁ,
that destination due only to ignorance. avijjāyeva sā gati.

For ignorance is the great delusion
Avijjā hāyaṁ mahāmoho,
because of which we have long transmigrated. Yenidaṁ saṁsitaṁ ciraṁ;
Those beings who have knowledge
Vijjāgatā ca ye sattā,
do not proceed to a future life.” Na te gacchanti punabbhavanti.

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Yes, fair enough, of course moha and avijja aren’t EXACTLY the same, because one is phrased positively and one negatively, as noted by Ven Sunyo. Though he does also say in the previous sentence that: “Avijja refers indeed to moha, delusion.” Indeed, in the suttas we see time and again that what is functionally the same thing can be referred to in both positive and negative terms. Your own quote from Snp 3.12:11.7 does this with these very terms:

So the question here is really, “are avijja and moha functionally the same for the purposes of rebirth and extinguishment?”

I think my previous answer, which has been suspended on suspicion of being written by an AI (it wasn’t - I spent ages researching and writing that :joy: ), drew out the both the similarity and distinction between the two for these purposes quite clearly, including, in the detail section, full sutta references. So hopefully that will be reinstated, and then I will edit to clarify the for the purposes of point. But gist is as follows:

  • Moha = Full Avijja, believing that killing, stealing, lying etc. will bring happiness, leading to a bad rebirth
  • Mundane Amoha = Avijja, but lesser, i.e. keeping the precepts but still having a self conceit, leading to a good rebith
  • Transcendent Amoha = Vijja (ending of Avijja), leading to extinguishment

Your quote from Snp 3.12:11.7 is interesting in this regard, because it demonstrates that what I (and the Abhidhamma) call Mundane Amoha/Non-Delusion is still included within The Great Delusion/mahāmoho of this sutta. There is a lot more one could say to unpack this inclusion of the same moderate level of delusion withing both Moha and Amoha in different suttas depending on context, but I think the important take away is that the use of language and terms in the suttas is not strictly formulaic. One needs to analyse the terms and context together in order to reach the insight contained. Sometimes Amoha means functionally the same thing as Vijja, sometimes it doesn’t, depending on context.

Update: my previous post has been kindly reinstated, but I can no longer edit it to add in the point about for these purposes.

In SN10.3, why the yakkhas asked the lord about raga and dosa, but not moha?

A delusion is a firmly held false belief that persists despite clear, contradictory evidence. Moha is basically misperception of Reality, seeing and thinking the impermanent as permanent, unsatisfactory as satisfactory, not-self as Self. Greed, hate, delusion arise from spiritual ignorance (avijja) and clinging to a fixed self-view or identity. Uprooting these three will naturally clear the path to Nibbana. Four-noble truths are actually Four Noble Realizations (they are not beliefs) directly experienced by those who walk the ancient path of ariyas (ariya-magga).