But what does it mean? (see former repy)
It means seeing dependent origination and dependent origination phenomena. Phenomena means subject to arising and ceasing, aka anicca.
And what, bhikkhus, are the dependently arisen phenomena? Aging-and-death, bhikkhus, is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, vanishing, fading away, and cessation.
See here SuttaCentral
You do not need jhana fot stream entry, don’t spread wrong views
To answer this question, for attaining sotapanna fruit
(dhamma eye and fetter destruction), the following conditions would need to be met
- Your neighbors must possess the faculties, the Buddha said not everyone has the faculties to understand the teaching, even when perfectly explained to them.
- Your neighbor, with those faculties, must have yoniso manasikara
- With that yoniso manasikara, it must be directed to hearing the true dhamma (N8FP, 4NT, DO, and DOP)
- At the time of hearing the true dhamma with proper attention, the mind would get gladdened resulting in overcoming the 5 hindrances and pamojja, and then jhana for at least a moment of a finger snap
- Stainless Dhamma chakkhu (eye) opens and sotapanna phala is attained replacing identity view with dependent origination (Supermundane right view).
Hm… let me review again. Kind of difficult to agree.
Because for me, i look at MN 48. Over there Buddha explained about the fruits in details. The review of knowledge become wisdom.
While opening of dhamma eye, i don’t think is the fruition moment.
On MN 79, there is no mention of stream entry. Also don’t see any announcement from Buddha about Sakuludāyī as stream enterer in Sutta. If you do, please point me to it.
Without a dhamma eye, make it kind of in shaky ground. One needs to put extra effort for the dhamma eye to arise.
Lol.
Where are the wrong views? This is just technicality about path and fruit.
If you understand @Thito explanation basically he said for stream entry fruit, you need jhana.
While i said you need jhana for stream enterer path. While fruit is just acquired from wisdom.
So stream enterer still needs jhana either way. It is just a matter of when.
Based on the sutta you refer to, does seeing PS in fact mean that one sees there is no doer?
Just formations arising and ceasing. No doer or I in the past, no doer or I now, no doer and I in the future?
I think the sutta’s also describe a gradual increase of understanding. Maybe one at sotapanna stage does not really see the egoless yet fully but at least has some understanding?
It means that the “doer” is either the 3 poisons (ignorance) or the lack of the 3 poisons (wisdom), and everything else is a domino cause and effect.
It’s just a confirmation that what the Buddha is teaching is in fact true and real.
It’s like a therapist telling you that if you do x, y, z, then a, b, c wil happen, and you try it out and in fact a, b, c is starting to happen. Like say giving up cigarettes, you might notice that the urge has slightly decreased but you still have a lot of work to do. Either way, you now have experiential confidence in that therapist.
Sotapanna phala attainer has confirmed that there is in fact a stress of the clinging aggregates, and it is in fact craving that causes stress (2nd noble truth), and that the noble eightfold path does indeed reduce that craving, and this entire thing is methodological and structured (dependent origination).
whether there is an arising of Tathagatas or no arising of Tathagatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality. A Tathagata awakens to this and breaks through to it. Having done so, he explains it, teaches it, proclaims it, establishes it, discloses it, analyses it, elucidates it. And he says: ‘See! With ignorance as condition, bhikkhus, volitional formations.’
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It’s good to have experiential confidence in the teaching: ‘The teaching is well explained by the Buddha—visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.’
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It’s good to have experiential confidence in the Saṅgha: ‘The Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples is practicing the way that’s good, direct, methodical, and proper.
Thanks. Six roots: 3 unwholesome roots: lobha, dosa, moha, and 3 wholesome roots: alobha, adosa and amoha. 3 wholesome roots lead to relative happiness in this and other lives, but still within samsara. How does wisdom come into play? The wisdom that frees from samsara?
Thanks. I know there are many ways to doubt even when one has some confirmation. I think this is very personal.
Looks like I stand corrected.
I review the following pali in MN 79 and others with the following wordings:
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Seyyathāpi, bhante, nikkujjitaṁ vā ukkujjeyya, paṭicchannaṁ vā vivareyya, mūḷhassa vā maggaṁ ācikkheyya, andhakāre vā telapajjotaṁ dhāreyya: ‘cakkhumanto rūpāni dakkhantī’ti; evamevaṁ bhagavatā anekapariyāyena dhammo pakāsito.As if he were righting the overturned, or revealing the hidden, or pointing out the path to the lost, or lighting a lamp in the dark so people with good eyes can see what’s there, the Buddha has made the teaching clear in many ways.
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This is not stream enterer path (magga).
I also checked whether any of them eventually announced by Buddha as stream enterer after their death. I couldn’t point out any.
Can you point on Sutta about Sakuludāyī as a stream enterer by Buddha?
Although there is some who transcend to become ariya, but after announcement by Buddha such as Uṇṇābha Brahmin who is a non returner on SN 51.15 and then SN 48.42.
Please refer to DN 2 Sāmaññaphala Sutta as well, where King Ajātasattu also has the same expression. But Buddha said he can’t enter the stream. He will go down to lower realm. This means even with this expression will lead you to lower realm if your past actions are so bad.
If he had not taken the life of his father, a just and principled king, the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma would have arisen in him in that very seat.”
Also on SN 55.40 Nadiyasakka Sutta, Buddha said:
“Nandiya, someone who totally and utterly lacks these four factors of stream-entry is an outsider who belongs with the ordinary persons, I say.
“‘Yassa kho, nandiya, cattāri sotāpattiyaṅgāni sabbena sabbaṁ sabbathā sabbaṁ natthi tamahaṁ bāhiro puthujjanapakkhe ṭhito’ti vadāmi.
On this passage even a stream enterer path will have aveccappasādena otherwise they are puthujjana.
Although I’m aware that you mention SN 55.24, but we need to take all discourses into consideration. In SN 55.24, Buddha explained about an individual is having the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. But this doesn’t mean they don’t have confidence at all to triple gems, this is due to the wisdom hasn’t matured yet.
Have you checked on SN 25.1-25.10, Buddha explained about faith follower or dhamma follower. The teaching needs to be related to 4NT or DO, can’t be just any teachings.
SN 25.1 said:
“Mendicants, the eye is impermanent, perishing, and changing.
“Cakkhuṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi;
The ear,
sotaṁ aniccaṁ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi;
nose,
ghānaṁ aniccaṁ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi;
tongue,
jivhā aniccā vipariṇāmī aññathābhāvī; Variant: vipariṇāmī aññathābhāvī
body,
kāyo anicco vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi;
and mind are impermanent, perishing, and changing.
mano anicco vipariṇāmī aññathābhāvī.
Someone who has faith and confidence in these principles is called a follower by faith. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person.
Yo, bhikkhave, ime dhamme evaṁ saddahati adhimuccati—ayaṁ vuccati saddhānusārī, okkanto sammattaniyāmaṁ, sappurisabhūmiṁ okkanto, vītivatto puthujjanabhūmiṁ;
They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm.
abhabbo taṁ kammaṁ kātuṁ, yaṁ kammaṁ katvā nirayaṁ vā tiracchānayoniṁ vā pettivisayaṁ vā upapajjeyya;
They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.
abhabbo ca tāva kālaṁ kātuṁ yāva na sotāpattiphalaṁ sacchikaroti.
Someone who accepts these principles after considering them with a degree of wisdom is called a follower of the teachings. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person.
Yassa kho, bhikkhave, ime dhammā evaṁ paññāya mattaso nijjhānaṁ khamanti, ayaṁ vuccati: ‘dhammānusārī, okkanto sammattaniyāmaṁ, sappurisabhūmiṁ okkanto, vītivatto puthujjanabhūmiṁ;
They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm.
abhabbo taṁ kammaṁ kātuṁ, yaṁ kammaṁ katvā nirayaṁ vā tiracchānayoniṁ vā pettivisayaṁ vā upapajjeyya;
They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.
abhabbo ca tāva kālaṁ kātuṁ yāva na sotāpattiphalaṁ sacchikaroti’.
Someone who understands and sees these principles is called a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.”
Yo, bhikkhave, ime dhamme evaṁ pajānāti evaṁ passati, ayaṁ vuccati: ‘sotāpanno avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyano’”ti.
However, for Stream enterer phala (fruit), this also means they announce they have the 4 factors including morality perfection such as SN 55.53.
… “Sir, these four factors of stream-entry that were taught by the Buddha are found in us, and we embody them. For we have experiential confidence in the Buddha … the teaching … the Saṅgha … And we have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones … leading to samadhi.”
“You’re fortunate, Dhammadinna, so very fortunate! You have all declared the fruit of stream-entry.”
That’s how I understood.
So attaining the dhamma vision (dhammacakkhuṁ) is important for entering the stream (path).
Going refuge doesn’t mean, one has entered the stream.
If you find any other discourses, please let me know. I certainly open if you can find other discourses which stated otherwise.
I literally quoted suttas showing that stream entry path do not have aveccappasādena, so I don’t understand the denial.
Also, King Ajatasattu, like Devadatta are bad examples to use, since according to the commentaries, they will become Pacceka Buddhas after their time in hell. So in the instances that someone actually understands the dhamma but has killed their parents or harmed an Arahant, and realized their mistake, then they will be reborn in hell but afterwards become a Pacceka Buddha.
Problem is you insist on MN 79 Passages as the stream enterer path (Sotapanna Magga) with these sentences. I show you that it is not, it is also on DN 2.
As if he were righting the overturned, or revealing the hidden, or pointing out the path to the lost , or lighting a lamp in the dark so people with good eyes can see what’s there, the Buddha has made the teaching clear in many ways.
I’m trying to point out. These sentences don’t describe a person has reached stream enterer path (Sotapanna Magga).
Then you quote SN 55.24 as the confirmation. But SN 55.24 described the faith follower and dhamma follower with 5 faculties presents including samadhi (faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom). Although this samadhi could be any low jhana for 1 finger snap.
Also, King Ajatasattu, like Devadatta are bad examples to use, since according to the commentaries, they will become Pacceka Buddhas after their time in hell. So in the instances that someone actually understands the dhamma but has killed their parents or harmed an Arahant, and realized their mistake, then they will be reborn in hell but afterwards become a Pacceka Buddha.
Now, I’m confused. Are you saying they are also stream enterer, but they go to lower realm? This is in conflict with Sutta. Also, You know that commentary are unreliable right. There is no Sutta confirming it.
Also if you ever find out this, please let me know.
Can you point on Sutta about Sakuludāyī as a stream enterer by Buddha?
The other thing is MN 56 Upali Sutta.
Don’t you feel odd for an outsider (Nigantha follower) attained a Stream Enterer Fruit (Phala) just by hearing Buddha discourse about 4NT without a Stream Enterer Path (Magga) ?
Good luck. I know it is difficult to accept, but that is how Sutta described it.
You might find this talk useful. Bhante Dhammika talks about the Bahiya sutta, and puts attainments upon hearing the Dhamma in context of having had a solid practice framework first. Here he emphasizes the gradual nature of the path, and some of the issues facing practitioners today who may have an unrealistic expectation of how progress on the path works. I found it a straight forward and refreshing take on this issue. Hope it is of some use 
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What is your source?
Inside the conclusions of this paper, V.Analayo accepts the Truth regarding the liberation by wisdom:
“Bare awareness does after all appear to have a place in accounts of early Buddhist meditation[…] The terminology employed in this instruction recurs in an exposition by Malu∫kyaputta of an injunction, also given to Båhiya, to remain with bare awareness of sense experience. Such practice is, according to the Påli discourses and their parallels, clearly invested with the potential of leading to awakening.”
- The Båhiya Instruction and Bare Awareness
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/bareawareness.pdf
Please, show the source of your claim, to clarify confusions over the V.Analayo view around this Sutta.
thanks in advance
“Thus from an original nucleus of Udānas two lines of development can be discerned, one of which leads to the Udāna now preserved in Pāli by adding a prose commentary to the Udānas, while the other incorporated Udānas from the Dhammapada/Dharmapada collections, resulting in the Udāna collection preserved in Sanskrit.”
Not only certain words or parts of a discourse, but at times entire prose sections appear
to be later additions of a commentarial nature. This can be seen, for example, in
the Udana collection, whose verses are embedded in prose narrations that often appear
to have been added at a later time.
A Comparative Study of the Majjhima-nikaya: Volume 2
Inside the conclusions of this paper, V.Analayo accepts the Truth regarding the liberation by wisdom
Personally I doubt there is such a thing.
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I understand, thank you. The paper I have quoted seems to be from year 2019 (“International Journal of Buddhist Studies”, vol.21) while “A Comparative Study of the Majjhima-nikaya” seems to be from year 2010.
Note the Bahiya Sutta contains the same teaching that we can find inside the Maalunkyaputta Sutta SN 35.95:
“Then, Malunkyaputta, with regard to phenomena to be seen, heard, sensed, or cognized: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.”
in your attached text from year 2010 the similarity with the Maalunkyaputta Sutta was not mentioned. Maybe his knowledge about this issue could grow in those years, who knows. The evolution of many Scholars works are difficult to understand specially from the recent decade. In a general way (and not related with any name neither Analayo) the quality seems to be lower while their conclusions try to be more ambitious. Maybe it can have some relation with the present low-cost culture and it becomes acceptable in a normal way.
really? Why?
That would contradict the Suttas because this is everywhere. In fact, according some of them it was the more common way of liberation in Buddha times:
In example SN 8.7:
"“There is nothing, Sāriputta, that these five hundred monks have done by way of body or speech that I would criticize. For of these five hundred monks, sixty have the three knowledges, sixty have the six direct knowledges, sixty are freed both ways, and the rest are freed by wisdom.”
SuttaCentral
500-180 = 320
Freed by Wisdom still has the rupa jhanas. (Not sure if you’re implying otherwise).
no further implication. Although, Can you share some source from that conclusion?
Only formless jhanas are optional at the time of Arahant fruit
And what person is freed by wisdom? It’s a person who does not have direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. Nevertheless, having seen with wisdom, their defilements have come to an end. This person is called freed by wisdom. I say that this mendicant has no work to do with diligence. Why is that? They’ve done their work with diligence. They’re incapable of being negligent.
- mn 70
It also doesn’t mean they never attained formless jhanas in the past, just at the time of fruit, as Sariputta was a pannavimutti Arahant but had attained formless jhanas before.