Bad vs. Good | False vs. True | Wrong vs. Right

Although I haven’t understood much of what has been said I have enjoyed this thread very much. I still don’t think I understand the difference between the two views of absolutism and relativism but I’m not so sure that it is so important.

One thing that I don’t think that’s been mentioned is the simile of the raft (mn22) where the Buddha insists that his teachings are for the purposes of crossing over. So you build a raft of the teachings, use it to cross over and then abandon it once the job is complete.

As a side thought: If people don’t want to cross over (yet) then it’s probably inappropriate for them to build a raft in the first place, so (committed EBT) Buddhists shouldn’t be regarded like non (EBT) Buddhists (or fledgling EBT Buddhists) even if we do consider it is “for their own good”. Is it appropriate to make laws based on our religious teachings if we have the power to? What punishments would we give to people who broke our religious laws because they felt they were doing the right thing?

Anyway, we also see that even views/teachings as sublime and fundamental to the EBTs such as ‘kamma and rebirth’ or ‘dependant origination’ begin to break down at stream entry and are gone at the attainment of arahant. So although for some of us rebirth is a very real and true eventuality, for others it is not - if we believe what the Buddha and the arahants say that is - and rebirth is truly ended at full awakening. If the teachings are true for one individual but not true for another does that make them relative rather than absolute? I don’t know.

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This came to mind. It is absolute in scope. It is also relative since it is circular.

MN9:64-66.9: Ignorance originates from defilement…
MN9:70.4: Defilement originates from ignorance…

The only escape is the Noble Eightfold Path.

MN9:70.4: Defilement originates from ignorance. Defilement ceases when ignorance ceases. The practice that leads to the cessation of defilement is simply this noble eightfold path, that is…

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I think there are suttas which reject “black and white” dichotomies, and go for subtlety instead.
An obvious example is SN12.15, which rejects the dichotomy of existence v. non-existence, and replaces it with dependent origination.

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Yes. The arahant originates from ignorance and defilement. Thank goodness for that, otherwise there would be no escape.

I love the way that transcendental dependant origination has suffering as the root cause and gets going properly with faith. So maybe we can say that ones faith does fundamentally change reality. It also helps us to understand why the Buddha insists that good spiritual friendship is the whole of the path, not just an important part of it (sn45.2).

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Is there a sutta or vinaya story that actually presents a similar moral dilemma? The closest thing I can think of is jataka stories that depict the bodhisattva choosing to killing himself in order to save other beings (but usually not actually succeeding because others intervene).

Overall, I would caution against rationalizing principles that haven’t been confirmed in real life. As a simple example, we can read about Mount Sumeru being the tallest mountain at the center of world in Buddhist texts, but we’d be hard pressed to actually locate it in the real world, much less find the center of a world that’s actually a sphere. Scripture doesn’t replace critical thinking.

Hi, is that video clip a recording of a real incident that occurred in a supermarket shop, or is it just a movie clip? I.e. was that video taken by that shop security camera, or just by a video making crew? (Movies and other artificial scenarios are not the direct and best means to contemplate, understand and illustrate the workings of the Law of Kamma.)

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The authenticity of the clip is unknown. However it did illustrate dark and bright results in a vivid lay example. More authentically, the Vinaya origin stories also describe many cases that engendered new rules. Apparently sentient beings are adept at finding loopholes.

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Thank you Karl.
:slightly_smiling_face:

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I agree completely.
But it seems also worth mentioning that the Buddha didn’t reject all forms of clinging and grasping - he discouraged clinging that leads to an increase in harmful qualities of mind and a decrease of beneficial qualities of mind and encouraged clinging that leads to an decrease in harmful qualities of mind and increase of beneficial qualities of mind.
Furthermore, he didn’t teach that beings should abandon the raft before they cross over. Those who seem intent on unconditional letting go and non-clinging may jump ship prematurely, getting swept away by the strong tides of tanha and diving headlong into dukkha - possibly drowning without ever reaching to far shore. If it was easy to reach the far shore, there would be no need to build a raft!!

I agree that it is probably not suitable to try to teach the Dhamma-Vinaya to unreceptive beings.

Interesting question!
I think the Buddha’s solution to this question is the cakkavatti king who governs based solely upon and in accordance with the Dhamma.
It seems that making laws based on religious teachings is not inherently bad nor good - it very much depends on whether the religious teachings themselves are bad or good - if the teachings or parts of the teachings are bad, then basing it those teachings seems bad to that degree, but if the teachings or parts of the teachings are good, then it basing on those teachings seems good to that degree. It seems to really depend on the validity and value of the teachings.

Can you explain what you mean here? I am not entirely sure what you mean by “views/teachings begin to break down and are gone”. :thinking: Thank you in advance.

Simplistically, relativism says that there is no objective reality. Saying that “the teachings are true for one individual but not true for another” is an implicit endorsement of relativism.
Simplistically, absolutism says there is an objective reality. The view that “the teachings are true for one individual but not true for another” is pretty much explained as meaning “being A may hold view X, being B may hold view Y, and the reality ( C ) may be Z” - to whatever degree views X and Y accord with with Z, to that degree beings A and B hold the correct view and not otherwise.
In this view, person A may be right and person B may be wrong, person B may be right and person A may be wrong, both might be wrong, or both might be right.
However, if both hold diametrically opposite and logically inconsistent view - they both certainly cannot be right.
If one says killing is okay and another says killing is not okay - relativism says there is no right answer and no way to judge who is right and who is wrong - absolutism says that there is a right answer and both cannot be right. However, different absolutist might say the right answer is different: Sharia law might say one thing, Judeo-Christian ethics might say another, Hindu Dhamma, Jain Dhamma, and Buddhist Dhamma might say quite another.
My personal opinion is that relativists are probably always wrong, and absolutists may be wrong or right depending on how in accordance with the reality they actually are.
I also think the Buddha rejected relativism.
But the discussion above was about whether it might be possible for some “limited or qualified” forms of relativism to have some validity - like your favorite color is the “best” for you and my favorite color is the “best” for me - such a sentiment is acknowledged in the Dhamma-Vinaya: the sights, sounds, scents, tastes, and touches that are the most liked and wished-for by one is the best for that person.
That being said, this is taught an objective truth and reality - to argue against the Buddha that “the sights, sounds, scents, tastes, and touches that are the most liked and wished-for by one is the not the best for that person” would be rejected by the Buddha and thus the Buddha does not think that “anything goes” and “whatever a being thinks is right and true is necessarily right and true” in reality.

Can you explain what you mean by " absolute in scope" and “relative since it is circular”? I don’t think I understand. :thinking:

I completely agree. :pray:

I think the “rejection of any and all extremes altogether” seems fundamentally different than the “rejection of any and all dichotomies altogether.”
I think you are right that the Buddha does do the former, but I don’t think that he does the latter.
For example, I think the Buddha rejects any and all harmful actions (akusala kamma) through any and all possible avenues (body, speech, and mind):

delivered to Rahula regarding definitively not doing any actions at all that lead to the harm of oneself, others, or both oneself and others.

In this case, there is, in my opinion, a very very clear dichotomy, like a line drawn in the sand between the following two positions:
the doing of actions that lead to the harm of oneself, others, or both oneself and others.
the non-doing of actions that lead to the harm of oneself, others, or both oneself and others.

The Buddha seems to definitively and unequivocally reject the former and accept the latter.
He has made similar declarations in other suttas, such as one to Ananda where he said beings “definitively should do beneficial bodily, verbal, and mental actions,” and “definitively should not do harmful bodily, verbal, and mental actions.”
He said that anyone who says that the Buddha did not say this would be misrepresenting the Buddha.

Translating akusala kamma as “skillful action” could be a “linguistic trick” to help justify say, “skillful killings” or “skillful deceptions” or “skillful harmful actions” that somehow supposedly (despite the Buddha rejecting this as an impossibility, I think in AN book of 1’s or 2’s) lead the “good of others” (a “selfless sentiment” found only in later buddhist texts) - in my opinion, these are merely justifications, rationalizations, and excuses that often stem from trying to blur the clear dichotomy that the Buddha upholds in such cases (i.e. akusala kamma vs. kusala kamma) - I acknowledge that such a view of “clearly distinguishing between wrong and right” does not seem fashionable or trendy in pop culture today, where “true wisdom is realizing that everything is gray area” (implicitly rejecting that anything at all can be considered black and white). Popular doesn’t make something true though.
That being said, I completely agree that the Buddha does reject “all extreme views” and the sorts of “false dichotomies” that often lead to being veering between these two views.
For example, the Buddha rejects “indulgence in sensory pleasure”, but the Buddha also rejects the “deprivation of sensory pleasure” too. However, the middle way taught by the Buddha is not, as many beings in pop culture seem to interpret it, “a little bit of indulgence and little bit of deprivation” or “moderation in indulging in sensory pleasures.” Instead, it is the development of the Noble Eightfold Path.
So yes, he seems to reject the (overly-simplistic, false) dichotomy between indulgence and deprivation (among other dichotomies), but I don’t think that this can be generalized to mean that he rejected all dichotomies ever.

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By absolute in scope I mean that there are no exceptions and no loopholes in the following.

MN9:64-66.9: Ignorance originates from defilement…
MN9:70.4: Defilement originates from ignorance…

By “relative since it is circular” I meant that ignorance and defilement are mutually relative, arising from each other. One cannot escape ignorance without escaping defilement. One cannot escape defilement with escaping ignorance.

In addition, both ignorance and defilement are relative to body, speech and mind. And with perfection, the right freedom from ignorance and defilement is absolute:

AN4.171:5.2: But when ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, there is no body and no voice and no mind, conditioned by which that pleasure and pain arise in oneself.

Yeah. Sure he did:

In the same way, I have taught how the teaching is similar to a raft: it’s for crossing over, not for holding on. By understanding the simile of the raft, you will even give up the teachings, let alone what is against the teachings.

Arahants have no reason to walk the path, they’ve already arrived.

Yeah. Sure. Use the teachings until they have no use, then stop.

That not been my experience. Is it yours? For me, using the raft is a training in unconditional letting go. Starting with gross views and moving to more refined views, and then … :slight_smile:

Well it’s easy to reach it, if you have the blueprint, material and inclination to build and use a raft.

If I remember this archetype correctly, all of their subjects are governed voluntarily. A sort of - “Oh, great king, you’re so cool, all the people want you to come and govern us”. So no taking of land or people by force, no coercion, no need for laws I think. Is that correct?

I thought I did explain it in the sentence immediately following that one. Have another read and see what you think.

OK. If what you say there is correct, then it must be relativism. My example again: for non arahants, rebirth is true; for arahants rebirth has ended and is no longer true.

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I have no idea what basis you have for this notion that translators are purposely trying to do this, but the word good could be used in the exact same way, “good killing” “good deception” etc. Good in English means many things, skillful (“I’m really good at math”) being one of them.

Jatakas are pretty old, as far as it goes, which is where we start to see altruistic ethics emerge in Buddhist texts. We don’t really know the age of any of this literature in India apart from the dates of Chinese translations. We can only really judge the relative age of Buddhist texts in relation to each other. Abhidharma texts referencing sutras clearly came later, as do Mahayana sutras referencing Abhidharma ideas. It’s easy to slip from “probably” to “certainly,” but we should bear in mind that there’s no real dating for Indian Buddhist literature.

Popular culture is not always wrong, nor do I see what is relevant about whether something seems popular or not. If you were living in a Buddhist country, other things would be popular.

In Buddhist discourse, my understanding is that good and bad hinges on whether something causes suffering or happiness. It can be nuanced of course: A temporary pleasure is bad in hindsight because we can suffer a great deal once it’s gone. But that’s the basic principle of good and bad karma. If you didn’t suffer from bad karma, how would it be bad?

That being the case, good and bad karma is a personal, subjective experience. It can even change over time. A seemingly bad event can lead to another event that’s good. Then the bad event is remembered differently. It’s not a single bad event, but part of a larger good outcome. I can think of plenty of life experiences that have been like that.

Of course, the EBTs tell us in simple binary statements that A leads to bad rebirths and not-A leads to good rebirths. I’m not sure how these can be considered absolute rules, though, when there are suttas that bring in other contexts like a person’s overall history of good and bad action. One person’s outcome is different than another’s for various reasons, which is why the Buddha told people not to speculate about it. You need to be omniscient to know what you’re talking about, as it were. So, if we take in the whole picture, even the EBTs present a nuanced view of karma that rejects the moral absolutism of the Jains, for instance.

When it comes to moral principles, like the five precepts in Buddhism, I think that it’s true that they are essentially social norms. Morality in general gets messy because societies adopt different moral principles based on culture, so they can disagree with each other on those issues. However, all societies are made up of humans, and so there are moral principles that are universal in practical terms. A society that decides that dishonesty is fine will suffer alot of chaos (and I personally think we’re witnessing a live experiment of that in America these days) because people don’t know what to believe and can’t make good decisions as a result.

I guess I’m a pragmatist when it comes to morality. Given that societies often adopt moral principles that aren’t really moral, I think we need to evaluate them, not just accept them because an authority like a Buddhist scripture says so.

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