Beginner's question about the nature of mind and everything

The Watercooler
22

Objective/Subjective are kind of modern perspectives, but we can say that Buddha was concerned with yathābhūta of events; just because he was not an ontologist and instead he came from the phenomenological perspective doesn’t mean he was all about subjective reality. In fact, not having an ontological argument and instead only seeing phenomena can be rightly called his objective view of the world.

Yathābhūta is a word that comes up again and again in the suttas: Like-become is it’s literal translation, “As it really is” is often a common translation.

“One excited by lust, overcome by lust, with mind obsessed by it, does not understand as it really is his own good, the good of others, or the good of both. But when lust is abandoned, he understands as it really is his own good, the good of others, and the good of both.” AN10.21

So, in fact our subjective interpretation of our experiences - the aggregates, the poisons, everything - is what keeps us in samsara - not having an objective view of the nature of mind, matter, consciousness, etc, as suffering.

When one rightly sees the life, aggregates, our experiences and all in life as yathābhūta, that is, suffering, then one rightly abandons these things.

Loka Sutta, for example, replaces Dukkha with Loka, World, expounding on how the understanding that “everything in life = suffering” is the objective way to view the world.

“Bhikkhus, the Tathāgata has fully awakened to the world; the Tathāgata is detached from the world. The Tathāgata has fully awakened to the origin of the world; the Tathāgata has abandoned the origin of the world. The Tathāgata has fully awakened to the cessation of the world; the Tathāgata has realized the cessation of the world. The Tathāgata has fully awakened to the way leading to the cessation of the world; the Tathāgata has developed the way leading to the cessation of the world."

“Having directly known all the world—
all in the world just as it is—
he is detached from all the world,
disengaged from all the world.” AN4.23

This is pretty much an objective stance to me.

2 Likes
23

Yes. It’s important to realize that the aggregate of perception is aggregate sense perception. When we perceive we “make sense” (or nonsense or no sense or partial sense or bad sense) of things. It goes against the Upanisadic egoic view that perception is brahma (creator) and the (hedonist) MO I-mine.

1 Like
24

I see this as how a Buddha guides people to asankhata, the stable, unailing, undefiled, constant, not desintegrating.

Samatha, vipassana, both; purification; any knowledge/nana; developing powers and enlightment factor; jhana; establishing mindfulness, making merit, anapanasati…etc…all means to one goal…arriving at Nibbana.

The goal is what counts, not what one thinks to possess or know. People might believe they finally possess insight into how things really are, or love, compassion…and that is what distinguishes them from ordinairy people…i say…conceit has grown here, delusion has increased.

1 Like
26

The nature of mind is debated. What is the nature of mind? I think there are different perspectives. An untamed defiled mind is like a monkey, grasping this branch and that branch. Such a monkey mind is described in SN12.61. It is unstable.

"It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worldling to take as self this body composed of the four great elements rather than the mind. For what reason? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty years, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still another, so too that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night.

Although the commentaries, apparantly, do not see it like this, i believe this monkey simile refers to the untamed mind which attention is alternately caught by this and that. Scattered among the senses.
This describes the habitually clinging mind. Or mind with clinging. It unvoluntairy gets caught by this visual, that idea, this sound, that feeling, this smell, that emotion etc.

But the sutta’s also describe the mind as stable such as in AN4.24

"Thus, bhikkhus, being ever stable among things seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, the Tathagata is a stable one. And, I say, there is no stable one mote excellent or sublime than that stable one."
Amid those who are self-constrained, the Stable One
would not posit as categorically true or false
anything seen, heard, or sensed,
clung to and considered truth by others
Since they have already seen this dart
to which people cling and adhere,
[saying] “I know, I see, it is just so”
the Tathagatas cling to nothing.

Cling to nothing…comes with stability. If mind would be fundamentally unstable how can we ever arrive at stability? If there is no ground for stability or peace, then becoming stable would even mean that we become more deluded about how things really are, right? But i believe the Buddha teaches that there is a real ground for stability.

The mind is also described as something detached from the 5 khandha’s and as without boundaries, such as in AN10.81:

''Bahuna, it is because the Tathagata is released, detached, and emancipated from ten things that he dwells with a mind free from boundaries. What ten? (1) It is because the Tathagata is released, detached, and emancipated from form that he dwells with a mind free from boundaries. (2)-(5) It is because the Tathagata is released, detached, and emancipated from feeling . . . perception . … volitional activities . . . consciousness that he dwells with a mind free from boundaries. (6)-(10) It is because the Tathagata is released, detached, and emancipated from birth . . . old age . . . death . . . suffering . . . defilements that he dwells with a mind free from boundaries.

So, one can say that clinging mind. or mind with clinging, lives with boundaries and is unstable, but the mind without clinging is without boundaries and is experienced as stable.

The mind is also descibed in terms of being stilled and empty, and as with formations and, as it were full. One can abide in the essential emptiness of the mind (Mn121) which is said to be very peaceful. In the sense the mind can also be burdened and unburdened.

Mind has also an aspect of clear light or clarity. Which can also become part of someones practice:

"And what is the development of concentration that leads to obtaining knowledge and vision?7 Here, a bhikkhu attends to the perception of light; he focuses on the perception of day thus: 'As by day, so at night; as at night, so by day. Thus, with a mind that is open and uncovered, he develops a mind imbued with luminosity. This is the development of concentration that* *leads to obtaining knowledge and vision (AN4.41)

This also describes mind as open and uncovered. Mind can also be closed and covered.

Especially later buddhist have emphasized that ignorance in fact comes down to a misunderstanding of the nature of mind. Its essential emptiness is perceived in a distorted way as an ego or self that knows. Its lack of boundaries or openess is misunderstood and distorted into a dual world of a perceiver and perceived (subject and object). This seeminlgy dual nature of mind gives rise to emotions, like, dislike, indifference. Habitual patterns strenghten. A endless wheel.

So, this whole endless carreer in samsara relies on distortion, not seeing things as they really are, especially the nature of mind.

27

It reads the Tathagata’s non-clinging is stable; rather than the Tathagata’s mind. The translation of “stable” for “tadi (unaffected)” does not read accurate. Stable is dhuva.

It reads the citta (heart) is non-attached; including to itself. I hope you are not positing a permanent mind outside of separate from the five aggregates?

What reads as stable is the non-clinging. The mind is not stable. MN 148 contains if the mind was permanent (stable), it would be a self.

If anyone says, ‘eye consciousness is self,’ that is not tenable. The arising and vanishing of eye consciousness is evident, so it would follow that one’s self arises and vanishes. That’s why it’s not tenable to claim that eye consciousness is self. So the eye, sights, and eye consciousness are not self.

MN 148

MN 12 says the Buddha’s wisdom is stable:

I’m advanced in years, and have reached the final stage of life. I am eighty years old. Suppose I had four disciples with a lifespan of a hundred years. And they each were perfect in memory, range, retention, and perfect lucidity of wisdom. Imagine how easily a well-trained expert archer with a strong bow would shoot a light arrow across the shadow of a palm tree. That’s how extraordinary they were in memory, range, retention, and perfect lucidity of wisdom. They’d bring up questions about the four kinds of mindfulness meditation again and again, and I would answer each question. They’d remember the answers and not ask the same question twice. And they’d pause only to eat and drink, go to the toilet, and sleep to dispel weariness. But the Realized One would not run out of Dhamma teachings, words and phrases of the teachings, or spontaneous answers. And at the end of a hundred years my four disciples would pass away. Even if you have to carry me around on a stretcher, there will never be any deterioration in the Realized One’s lucidity of wisdom.

1 Like
28

“Thus, bhikkhus, being ever stable among things seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, the Tathagata is a stable one…”(AN4.41)

Stable is the nature of a mind that is without lobha, dosa, moha, anusaya, asava, without clinging. Maybe it is even better to speak of a heart at ease. That is probably the best way the speak of Nibbana.

Buddha’s teachings are probably also more about heart then mind.

I do not care about any theory or sutta or scripture. Like the Buddha adviced. I care about sincere, upright ,open research, not of texts, ofcourse, but my life, body and mind, the heart. Ofcourse i use the texts as guideliness but ofcourse never as the answers.

If my research leads to the knowledge that mind is permanent, suppose, then that is what i have found and see. I have not found and seen this, but ofcouse it is senseless to even think we are practicing Dhamma when the answers are allready formed. That is not investigating. That is called brain-washing. So please to not burden me with ideas that i have and must arrive at this or that answer. I am not such a buddhist.

I do not agree that eye vinnana is mind. One does not loose mind when eye vinnana ceases. Same for other vinnana’s.

Yes, that is also in the sutta’s refered to as: abiding in the perfection of wisdom.

But most important, Buddha teaches the Path to Asankhata, the Stable, Constant, Not-Desintegrating, the unmanifested, the amazing, the refuge, etc.

Still people think there is no such as the not-desintegrating.

29

The Heart, corrupted by Avijja, creates the world of Sammuti. It creates Loka Dhatu in its entirety. All the Khandha are therefore just expressions of the Heart, but not the Heart itself. You could say that the Khandha are made from the same energy (cannot think of a better word) as the Heart. Just as figurines made of plasticine are different but share a base of plasticine.

When Panna sees through the illusion of Sammuti, Nirodha causes the true nature of the Heart to shine through. The process of creation then ceases as does the attachment to the duality of Sammuti (with final non-involvement being death of the body). This Ayatana is a singularity and therefore (regardless of others claiming this must be a self and therefore not Buddhist) it cannot be a “self” as the notion of self only exists in a duality. It is Anatta. The singularity, by virtue of being a singularity, is also still, peaceful, deathless. It is nothing but Nibbana Dhatu.

This is the essence of the Thai forest tradition.

1 Like
30

Stable is not an accurate translation for AN 4.24. The translation of “stable” for “tadi (unaffected)” does not read accurate. Stable is dhuva.

This contradicts the translation of “stable” in AN 4.24. “Tadi” is the “heart at ease”. This does not mean “stable”.

We must care about the language. The language is “citta”. “Citta” refers to the “emotional” quality of the “heart”. “Tadi” means the heart is not afflicted/affected by defiled emotion. It does not mean the heart has a stable permanent existence. The unafflicted, unaffected emotional heart is impermanent. For example, when a Buddha arouses metta, their heart no longer has only equanimity. When the life of a Buddha ends, the citta ends. The citta is an aspect of the five aggregratess and not separate.

The commentary about SN 12.61 reads invalid & false.

In which sutta is this found? If this is from SN 43.20, the word for “stable” is “dhuva”. It is not the “tadi” in AN 4.24. We cannot compare suttas using translations. It is best to compare suttas using Pali.

Citta & vinnana read as the same in essence but different in function. The Buddha taught only five aggregates; not six or seven. When the citta is affected by greed, the vinnana is affected by greed (SN 35.28). Both vinnana (SN 22.82) & citta (SN 47.42) arise from nama-rupa.

Name and form are the reasons why the aggregate of consciousness is found.

Nāmarūpaṁ hetu, nāmarūpaṁ paccayo viññāṇakkhandhassa paññāpanāyā”ti.

SN 22.82

The mind originates from name and form.

Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo;

SN 47.42

1 Like
31

Maybe you can take some time to investigate your own mind to try to understand mind? Have you ever seen it arising? What did you see at that moment arising? When you saw the mind ceasing ,what did you exactly see ceasing?

32

So, your view is that mind is everlasting?

1 Like
33

I am just thinking about maybe a Christian-Buddhist trying to harmonize the Buddha’s teaching with God and have experience of deep Jhānas. They might fall into the trap of Jhānas are nibbāna, and any texts cited to refute them, they most likely will say the quotes above.

And imagine them trying to convince Buddhists here of their own doctrine, instead of following the words of the Buddha, they follow their wrong views from their background and due to wrong views, wrong knowledge affirms it and then they are stuck, immovable from their wrong views.

2 Likes
34

What i believe is that great meditation masters in buddhism reveal that we must not think about the nature of mind/heart as something that comes and goes, like vinnana’s (and vedana’s, sankhara’s etc) do. Mind/heart has a deeper aspect, like the sea. A deep stillness. An aspect that is subtle and hard to see. A stable aspect. That is what i believe EBT also teaches.

I do not believe that what is stable and not arising, ceasing and changing, can be classified as eternally existent.

35

Deep or shallow jhana’s does not live for me. Jhana is jhana.

But i never think about meditation as some form of absence or blacking out. That has just nothing to do with meditation nor jhana or whatever development of mind, i feel. If deep is a synonym for absence or blacking out states, i am not interested in this idea of ‘depth’.

36

The mind is a concept, much like self, sankhara, or aggregate. You have to ask yourself if you should be applying this concept and how. The mind is synonymous with the heart, it is an emotional center, and it mediates by our physical bodies and embodiment of thought, but it passes through the current knowledge that we possess. Memories, theories, questions, dreams, and emotions all pass and arise. What is evident? What is permanent? To me the nature of the mind seems very impermanent like the Buddha taught, and the clearest way was to understand it as a factor to help us become Enlightened. It always has that potential for Awakening, but Nibbana and Buddhahood Transcend the mind.

3 Likes
37

Based on the suttas, it looks like there cannot be any great meditation masters in buddhism that believe any aspect of mind is permanent. I read in MN 115.

‘It’s impossible for a person accomplished in view to take any condition as permanent. That is not possible.

But it’s possible for an ordinary person to take some condition as permanent. That is possible.’

MN 115

The suttas tell us what was permanent was the Buddha’s mind’s absence of defilements.

Mendicants, I will teach you the unconditioned and the path that leads to the unconditioned. Listen

And what is the unconditioned? The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. This is called the unconditioned.

SN 43.12

The ending of greed, hate & delusion is called “ending”. It is not called “mind”. In SN 43.12, the word “unconditioned” does not refer to the mind itself.

This sounds true in respect to Nibbana rather than in respect to the mind.

There, mendicants, I say there is no coming or going or remaining or passing away or reappearing. It is not established, does not proceed, and has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.

Ud 8.3

“Deep” I read means no possibility of the five external senses operating, as in a sutta i read where the Buddha was meditating but did not hear 500 horse drawn carts passing by.

‘So, sir, while conscious and awake you neither saw nor heard a sound as it was raining and pouring, lightning was flashing, and thunder was cracking?’

‘Yes, friend.’

Then that person thought: ‘Oh, how incredible, how amazing! Those who have gone forth remain in such peaceful meditations, in that, while conscious and awake he neither saw nor heard a sound as it was raining and pouring, lightning was flashing, and thunder was cracking.’

DN 16

This deep jhana would mean the mind is undistracted & lucidly aware of what is occurring internally, in relation to the sixth (mind) sense. It would not mean blackening out. It would means no external distractions.

The Pali word translated as “stable” is “tadi”. Snp 3.11 shows “tadi” is emotional stability rather than permanence of mind.

A sage who has come to a village
Na munī gāmamāgamma,
would not walk hastily among the families.
Kulesu sahasā care;
They’d not discuss their search for food,
Ghāsesanaṁ chinnakatho,
nor would they speak suggestively.
Na vācaṁ payutaṁ bhaṇe.

‘I got something, that’s good.
Alatthaṁ yadidaṁ sādhu,
I got nothing, that’s fine.’
Nālatthaṁ kusalaṁ iti;
Impartial in both cases,
Ubhayeneva so tādī,
they return right to the tree.
Rukkhaṁvupanivattati.

Snp 3.11

38

I see it like this:

Buddha teaches that we are from time without a discoverable beginning ignorant about the stable, constant, not-desintegrating nature of mind (or heart or life). We are totally obsessed with what is seen arising and ceasing and changing. That sankhata aspect in our lifes totally defines our lifes. It totally blinds our vision. To a degree we even start to think there is nothing but this sankhata aspect of life.

While mere cessationalist take this as highest knowledge, i see this as ignorance and delusion. This is our lack of understanding. Our wrong view that arises because we are so obsessed by what comes and goes and changes. Due to this obsession mind remains totally unaware of what is stable, constant, not-desintegrating.

This has very great consequences. It is a very worldly vision that comes down to: all must be made, produced because there IS only the conditioned. And the result of this view, we see all around us.
People have lost or are loosing their intuition for what cannot change but is allready perfect, pure and does not have to be made. This wisdom gets lost and this is the one and only real loss of Dhamma. We humans loose gradually being in touch with a much deeper truth of life. The truth that it is oke, that is good, that there is purity, safety. In a life that only has eye for conditioning, there is never safety, never protection.

Buddha does all he can to break our obsession, our focus, our passion, the allure,our love for what comes and goes. This is not to guide us to a mere cessation, but to guide us to a direct knowledge of the stable, the constant, the not-desintegrating. And bring us home in the peace of purity and holiness of life. This was his great mission. The goal of the holy life.

So he teaches anicca, dukkha, anatta, this is not me, not mine, not my self to break this spell, this habit, this obsession with conditioned formations and states. In fact it is the same as…making us less superificial and see the depth of the ocean and not only moving waves. This is his Path to the stable, the constant, the not-desintegrating, the very hard to see, the Truth, deathless, the amazing, refuge, safety. Asankhata.

Buddha sought what is reliable. His message is not that there is nothing reliable. What he teaches is that what exist due to conditions, that is fundamentally unstable and unreliable. But ofcourse we need no Buddha to understand this. Many people that become sick realise that there is no control and nothing reliable. We need no Buddha to make us understand this. We need a Buddha to bring us the light of stability, the reliable, asankhata, Nibbana, the Truth. A buddha brings the light that unreliability is NOT the final answer. There is the stable, the reliable. And Buddha teaches this Path.

But to come to see this, and this is very hard to see says the Buddha, we must really break the spell of the conditioned, our love for it, our dependency upon it, our search for refuge, safety, peace in the conditioned. because it does not offer what we seek in it.
One must turn the mind really inwardly and be permeated more and more by the flavour of minds empty, stilled, dispassionate , pure nature. This is like connecting with life more and more and NOT disconnecting!

Meditation masters teach that some moment one can arrive at a point that one will have a direct understanding of minds nature. It is luminous all around. The knowing nature of mind is not like a stream of vinnana’s. That is the message i see in the EBT and also heard by great buddhist masters of all times.

In the end, any peace, ease that relies on something is not the goal of Dhamma. If we have peace of mind because we believe this or that understanding of Dhamma is true, right, that is fake news. That is not really being at ease. Lets admit that @Dunlop

Buddha has never created Nibbana, dispassion, purity. This is all beyond his scope. Nobody can create this. We can train the mind but do not create it. We can abandon all causes for passion to arise, but do not create dispassion. We can remove all what causes noise but we do not create stillness. We can remove formations but we not create minds emptiness.

Why is instability growing all around us and will only increase? Because people have lost the natural sense of purity, wholeness, the stable, the Path. They are trapped in a view that everything must be made, produced. This is the mundane stream but do not see this as Dhamma. Dhamma is very different. Dhamma is the teachings that do connect us again with the understanding that purity, dispassion, perfection, is not a result of conditioning but first of all of recognition, seeing that it is allready there. It does not have to be made.

Unfortunately, even buddhism, is infected with this worldly attitude that all must be made and produced.

39

What the ending of greed, hate and delusion practically means is described for example here:

He always sleeps well,
the brahmin who has attained nibbana,
cooled off, without acquisitions,
not tainted by sensual pleasures.
Having cut off all attachments,
having removed anguish in the heart,
the peaceful one sleeps well
having attained peace of mind. (AN3.53)

If you remove defilements from water does water become something else? Ofcourse not. It is now more then ever itself. That is always the result of purification. Things start to show as they really are.
The same with mind. Ofcourse mind does not become something else when the fires of lobha, dosa and moha are extinguished. Mind is now more then ever itself. What mind is now reveals itself.
How can one know what water is when one is not even able to distinguish defiled water from pure water? The same with mind.

In SN43 Buddha says he teaches a Path to the uninclined, the undefiled, peace, purity, the unaffliced, untroubled, dispassion, grace, non-clinging, the amazing…etc. which are all ways to talk about the mind free from all the fires.

Ofcourse this is all about minds nature, its real nature. Original mind. The refuge, the island is nothing else but minds pure nature. You can also call it purity of heart. If mind would not have this pure nature, unburdened, there would not be an escape and it would be totally meaningsless to make an island of ourselves, a refuge.

40

Bad sleep is not always due to an impure mind but can sometimes have more to do with the world of invisible living entities that haunt the mind. It doesn’t make sense to say “an Enlightened traveller does not ever get abused by robbers”, as in some Buddhist countries (and also think of the non-Buddhist countries), unfortunately, from time to time, there can even be violence against Buddhists, it is not a karma thing either, it is instead a situation of senselessness. In the same way bad dreams can appear in the mind of an Enlightened Disciple because those living entities who are invading his or her dream space are causing them to hallucinate bad dreams by their negative influence. Sure, he or she does not even have to choose to be in this world or feel such bad things, but then again neither do you. Why does abuse happen to good people? Because the senseless asuras have barricaded themselves in the Saha World, and the faithful are patiently enduring their nonsense in order to get them out, eventually. It is not easy, but Buddha points the way to Freedom.

Finding meaning in suffering can be tricky, but it may be the start of the Answer.

41

This is refuting your own argument. All mind in Buddhism is conditioned & impermanent.

42

Mind gives rise to certain sounds (ear-vinnana’s), smells (smell-vinnana’s) etc., thoughts, emotions, intentions, tendencies etc. All this does not arise without mind as forerunner (Dhp1).

Sense-vinnana’s are conscious mind moments. Moments of awareness of something specific. But it is not mind. Mind does not cease when 6 sense-vinnana’s cease. Vinnana’s represent, as it were, the stimulated mind moments, the cognizing mind moment. Activated mind. It has started to express or reflect things. I think it is like water. If you throw a stone in it, the water is stimulated, energized and start to express waves. The mind looks like that, i believe. Vinnana’s are like the stimulated mind moments, the energized (vitality) moments of becoming aware of something specific. The natural expressions of the mind. The dynamic aspect of coming and going.

If we see this stream of alternating stimulated sense moments as what describes mind in a complete manner, i believe, then we do what we have always done. We have still a shallow understanding of mind. Like only seeing the waves on the ocean, obsessed by movement, not able to see deeper into it.
Not able to see the deep stilled nature of the sea/mind. And the Tathgata’s is deep, immeasurable like the ocean, as the sutta’s say.

And i see that is what Buddha tries to do. Make us aware of this amazing peace, this purity, this stilness, this emptiness, this depth that is always a part of our life. He wants us to abandon our blindness for its and not longer ignore it.

EBT does not teach there is only sankhata. Some try to turn this into a translation issue. No, makes no sense. Buddha really teaches Asankhata, what is stable, constant, not-desintegrating and moreover…he teaches the Path to Asankhata! I do not make this up.

This uninclined, stilled, peaceful, empty, signless, dispassionate nature of mind is really part of EBT.
It is the whole core. It is this what Buddha teaches as the not-desintegrating, the amazing, purity, unailing, unborn, the refuge, the Truth, Asankhata.

I believe it can be seen as an aspect in our lifes which is, will be, was always pure and is also not of this world. It is beyond it.

The sutta’s teach that even when the 6 senses are shut down, and nothing is sensed and felt, there is still an ability to perceive, bliss. No black out. I believe this refers to: Mind is now absorbed in her own stilled knowing nature. I have seen this being described by great meditation masters and is clearly also part of the EBT. Black out is not.

What is realised at such moments is that this socalled personal existence that all beings perceive as the absolute reality is also mere a construction, liable to arise and cease any moment. It has never been so real as we feel it is real.

Seeing this, not intellectually, but really seeing this, makes an end to all stress, anxiety, worries, feelings of unsafety. Any search comes to an end when one sees the Truth. The Truth and bliss of stilling, cessation of personal existence. That is understoord not as a mere cessation, but finally seeing the deathless, the Truth.

Nothing ends but suffering when one dies is what this mind really knows.