Between Vedanā and Upādāna: What Is Taṇhā?

Discussion
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I am trying to understand taṇhā, but it still somehow escapes me, even though it seems like such a simple term. In English, it is often translated simply as craving or desire — and left at that.

But in some explanations, taṇhā is described as a reaction to vedanā. For example, a pleasant contact arises, and the mind says, “I want more of this.” Yet taṇhā also seems to involve some kind of movement toward something. For instance, dissatisfaction with one’s husband may arise, and then the mind moves toward, “Let’s fix my husband.” To me, that also seems like taṇhā.

But then I start to wonder where exactly the boundary is. If a thirsty monk, who strongly wants to drink, drinks water on a hot day, is that also taṇhā? If someone strongly wants to free themselves from an addiction, is that taṇhā too? Is the desire to have a “good meditation” also taṇhā? I know people who suffered a great deal because they longed so much for some kind of good meditation.

Is the wish for happiness for one’s own child also taṇhā? Is the wish for peace in the world also taṇhā?

Please help me understand this “thing” that lies between vedanā and upādāna. What characteristics does something need to have for us to say, “this is taṇhā”?

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Venerable Payutto’s Buddhadhamma has a chapter about desire in the Buddha’s teachings. There’s a helpful summary table in it, copy-pasted below. It’s a useful framework to help answer your questions.

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I just try here to add just a little more details.

A quick on-the-go understanding for tanha is: ‘a kind of thirst or fever that can not be satisfied and can not be stopped by itself.’

The Buddha told us about 3 kinds of tanha, below I will try to make some examples (beware of limited applicability), hoping to make it somewhat clearer for you.

  1. kamatanha: kind of similar to a situation that someone is very thirsty but before that person is sea water or honey poison.

  2. bhavatanha: kind of similar to a situation of a sand bubbler crab endlessly piling sand by the sea, only for the waves to wash it away.

  3. vibhavatanha: kind of similar to a leper who tries to release his irritation by rolling over hot burning coals.

So, it’s a special kind of desire/want that can not be satisfied and can not be stopped by itself.

I will attempt to answer some of your questions:

This is tanha, it can not be satisfied and can not be stopped by itself

No, it’s not tanha, supposingly he only drinks normal water. It’s a want/desire that’s called chanda.

No, it’s not tanha, it’s chanda. This has a stopping point.

This depends on definition of ‘good’ and ‘meditation’ whether this desire can be satisfied or can be stopped by itself.

This depends on definition of ‘happiness’ whether this desire can be satisfied

This depends on definition of ‘peace’ and ‘the world’. For a normal person, this wish is a tanha. For someone like the Buddha, it’s not a tanha.

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As far as dependent arising goes, feeling is sankhara and tanha sankhata dhamma. In other words in order that tanha could arise in experience towards something, this “something “ has to be felt. And with the cessation of feeling, tanha could not arise at all.

In the case of an arahat, no. All experience is teleological, consciousness adjust itself to the present situation, and if fire burns hand, or hunger is felt, in the case of an arahat reaction towards such painful feeling is automatical, it is quite normal to eat something when hunger is felt.

In the case of non-arahats, since the presence of ignorance, such reactions to pleasure and pain are most likely associated with tanha, depends on particular individual.

In other words intentionality is indispensable aspect of any experience. What is the problem is that apart an arahat intentionality is associated with states of greed, hatred and delusion.

Can there, then, be intentional conscious action—such as eating food—without the notion ‘It is I who am acting, who am eating this food’? The answer is, Yes. The arahat intentionally eats food, but the eating is quite unaccompanied by any thought of a subject who is eating the food. For all non-arahats such thoughts (in varying degrees, of course) do arise. The arahat remains an individual (i.e. distinct from other individuals) but is no longer a person (i.e. a somebody, a self, a subject). This is not—as you might perhaps be tempted to think—a distinction without a difference. It is a genuine distinction, a very difficult distinction, but a distinction that must be made.[1]

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If we look at SN12.2:6.1 we can see these in the reverse order:

And what is grasping? There are these four kinds of grasping. Grasping at sensual pleasures, views, precepts and observances, and theories of a self. This is called grasping.

And what is craving? There are these six classes of craving. Craving for sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and ideas. This is called craving.

And what is feeling? There are these six classes of feeling. Feeling born of contact through the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. This is called feeling.

and earlier in the same sutta:

… The six sense fields are requirements for contact. Contact is a requirement for feeling. Feeling is a requirement for craving. Craving is a requirement for grasping. Grasping is a requirement for continued existence…

I hope that by flipping the analysis around this is clearer.

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Thank you for your reply, and especially for the link to Venerable Payutto’s book — it was very helpful.

Reflecting on this topic, I noticed two things about how the mind works. This morning, when I woke up, my mind reminded me that it would be nice to play the computer game I have been playing recently, because it gives me a lot of satisfaction. I also noticed the humidifier, which I should probably put away.

In both of these examples, there was contact in the mind. In the case of the humidifier, the vedanā was neutral, while in the case of the game it was positive and strong.

Then I had a reflection: if I lived in some alternative world in which one had to choose what one would like to be in a future life, and there were, say, ten options, then one of the options I would definitely choose would be being a “gamer” (assuming that in this universe there is no option of Nibbāna).

In this context, owning a humidifier does not produce any pleasure, nor does it create any identity. No one would likely say, “I would like to be reborn in order to have a humidifier.”

For this reason, I am beginning to think that perhaps I misunderstood the Second Noble Truth, or at least did not understand it fully. I understood it as meaning that there are three kinds of taṇhā: craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, and craving for non-becoming. But now I am thinking that taṇhā is a craving for sensual pleasure that leads to becoming, identity-building, the creation of kamma, and consequently rebirth.

The fact that I own a humidifier, which is sometimes useful in my case, does not create any “identity” that would generate kamma.

I do not know whether my understanding is correct. I would be very interested in your opinion, but it seems to me that this way of understanding it explains a lot.

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Can you provide a sutta quote for this? I don’t remember having read that anywhere.

There’s a very clear definition of what taṇhā means in the context of the second noble truth, as for example found in the Buddha’s very first discourse:

SN56.11:4.3: Idaṁ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhasamudayaṁ ariyasaccaṁ—
Now this is the noble truth of the origin of suffering.
SN56.11:4.4: *yāyaṁ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṁ—
It’s the craving that leads to future lives, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure wherever it lands. That is,
SN56.11:4.5: kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā.
craving for sensual pleasures, craving to continue existence, and craving for nonexistence.

This is actually not dependent on the question whether or not the craving can be satisfied—it can only ever be satisfied temporarily—, but whether or not it leads to future lives, i.e. to the continuation of the endless wandering from birth to death, to the next birth, the next death, etc., i.e. endless suffering.

So you are somehow on the right track, but still the definition is a little different. I.e. all three kinds of craving—craving for sensual pleasures, craving to continue existence, and craving for nonexistence—all can lead to future existence.

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I think your reflections are good. Reflection and contemplation is an ongoing process of refinement. Conclusions are tentative. Thoughts and views can only be expressed in unwieldy words. They are instrumental, a means by which to understand dukkha, abandon its cause, realize its cessation, and practice the path leading to its cessation. We keep moving forward.

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Thank you Sayalay for pointing out the definition of tanha.

I was actually trying to do a first-aid patch here when I saw some intrigue questions like ‘let’s fix my husband’, ‘monk drinking water’, etc. before a fully examination by qualified doctors. They have quite serious consequences if left unchecked so I jumped with on-the-go solutions first.

It’s only my limited ability here but I find it’s much harder to make an answer involving future lives while still assuming my audience still do not have much contact/exposure to such truth. That’s why I said in my post that my illustrated examples will be stretched a lot, especially with bhavatanha and vibhavatanha.

And about sutta references for unsatisfied tanha, there are few suttas such as in MN54 Potalitasutta with a simile of a dog unsatisfied with meatless bones or in MN82 Ratthapalasutta where the king can not be satisfied with what he currently has and had to invade another country.

For illustrating the point that tanha can not be stopped by itself, we can rely on the claim of the Buddha that an end of suffering/samsara can not be obtained/known without the Dhamma or end of ignorance.

Those might not meet your high standard of definition for tanha but I hope with the above suttas as references, my first-aid won’t push the qualified doctors into awkward situation.