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Bhaddali remark (MN65)

When there was less Vinaya there were more arahats (MN 65).

What do you make of this remark that the Buddha agree with?

well sometimes I have thought that yes om one hand…I forget which part of the canon exactly (maybe someone can offer a quote) the buddha states that the reason why the ‘sasana’ lasts longer is because of vinaya ‘vinayo sasana sayu ti’ the vinaya is the lifeline of the sasana, vut on the other hand…the more conventions the more ditthis ‘views’ hence the conundrum of…well if there is no vinaya the sasana wont last long but at the same time, the more ‘samutti’ the more ‘ditthi mana’ views andof conceit

No vinaya was needed for the original arahanths. The ones that came after found it helpful. After that it was needed for people just to keep the Buddha’s dispensation intact.

with metta

Mat

Where does the Buddha say so in MN1 @alaber ?? :confused:

What I read in MN65 is this:

“Venerable sir, what is the cause, what is the reason, why there were previously fewer training rules and more bhikkhus became established in final knowledge?
What is the cause, what is the reason, why there are now more training rules and fewer bhikkhus become established in final knowledge?”

That is how it is, Bhaddāli. When beings are deteriorating and the true Dhamma is disappearing, then there are more training rules and fewer bhikkhus become established in final knowledge.

The Teacher does not make known the training rule for disciples until certain things that are the basis for taints become manifest here in the Sangha; but when certain things that are the basis for taints become manifest here in the Sangha, then the Teacher makes known the training rule for disciples in order to ward off those things that are the basis for taints.

“Those things that are the basis for taints do not become manifest here in the Sangha until the Sangha has reached greatness; but when the Sangha has reached greatness, then those things that are the basis for taints become manifest here in the Sangha, and then the Teacher makes known the training rule for disciples in order to ward off those things that are the basis for taints.

Those things that are the basis for taints do not become manifest here in the Sangha until the Sangha has reached the acme of worldly gain…the acme of famegreat learninglong-standing renown; but when the Sangha has reached long-standing renown, then those things that are the basis for taints become manifest here in the Sangha, and then the Teacher makes known the training rule for disciples in order to ward off those things that are the basis for taints."

I hope you are not reading in those words that it was the Vinaya what caused the deterioration in the practice (i.e. the decrease in number of arahants).

What the Buddha is saying is rather the opposite!

What the Buddha is stating is that there is a natural tendency to deterioration once Sangha becomes the object of wordly gains, fame and renown.

And this is what that triggers the establishment of the training rules that eventually get tossed in the basket of Vinaya. And the

And these rules are aimed at helping those who endeavor in the Dhamma-Vinaya brought back by a Buddha to “ward off those things that are the basis for taints.”

:anjal:

P.S.: I took the liberty of adding “(MN65)” to the topic’s title. Feel free to reject it.

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I think we can see it as analogous to “Why are there more remedial language and writing courses at a large university?”

As the sangha grew from from its earliest form as a select circle of earnest spiritual adepts, hand-chosen by the Buddha for their dedication and holiness, to a much larger organization with less exclusive membership, it was necessary to create more rules directing monks in basic manners and deportment.

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Yes I do. I have seen in many religions that people out of fear become concerned by the letter not “l’esprit”.
Although I don’t say that the Buddha Dhamma is a religion (it’s a practice to gain liberation from Dukkha), unfortunately Buddhism has become several religions and I believe the Vinaya is a cause for having less Arahats, at least in the monastic ranks.

Suggest you read Banthe Dhammika testimony in his book “Broken Buddha” in particular the chapters “The Vinaya”, “The Buddha and the Rules” and “Becoming a Monk”. (http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-berlin.de/downloads/brokenbuddhanew.pdf)

Tks for clarifying @alaber, at least it is now explicit where you are coming from. We’re always free to do / think as we wish!

This is clearly a matter of personal opinion and choice. It is definitely conditioned by your previous experiences or concepts of what the Vinaya is all about in practice.

Neither I or anyone else can fully appreciate what brings you to this point of view. Nevertheless, it is wise to avoid projecting one’s point of view into the Buddha.

Over the last 15 years of studying and trying to practice Buddhism I have encountered all sorts of people. Among those I have found individuals who beautifully adhere to what is in the Vinaya and that only served to their benefit and the benefit of those around them.

I see therefore a beautiful correlation between compassion-born and wisdom-bearing discipline and peace of mind and joy of heart. But just as in your case, this is mostly conditioned by my previous experiences and concepts of what the Vinaya is all about in practice.

:anjal:

Please read Banthe Dhammika book you will get an insider point-of-view.
It’s sad for me to find in the Theravada tradition so much distortions of the Dhamma as result of over emphasing a Vinaya that was completed centuries after the Buddha.
Clearly for the Buddha the Vinaya was not part of the Dhamma.

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This is your view and I respect it, I think the discussion ends her as there is no line of inquiry left in this conversation.

For whatever reason you choose to advocate for a Vinaya-free Buddhism and I just cannot find it in both scriptural and practical heritage of the tradition I study, respect and practice.

Look around, most of the northern Buddhist traditions somehow gave up the Vinaya already, few hundreds years ago actually, and as a result you have interesting things like the Vinaya-free Bodhissatvaisms of Japan and China, Guruisms of Tibet and Mongolia or even better the Western Buddhism-bookisms of whoever is the trendiest author among those wealthy enough to travel to nice resorts and retreat centers to tick in the box of what a real affluent Buddhist is expected to do and to be in America. :laughing:

Again, we are all free to do as we wish, the first to get awakened is the first one to go cool and disappear. :wink: Until of course you or someone else decide and choose to advocate for a noisy nibbana! :stuck_out_tongue:

Last but not least, it is worth knowing what we are criticising first hand. In case you haven’t yet it may be a nice idea to read the Vinaya yourself to know what it is all about. A nice point to start from is:

https://suttacentral.net/pi-tv-bu-vb

https://suttacentral.net/pi-tv-kd

I did two years ago.

Your turn: read Banthe Dhammika book.

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I did read it. :slight_smile:

It is a book concerned about the future of Buddhism and Theravada outside its current traditional countries. It has a lot to say about how most of the monastics in countries like Thailand and Sri Lanka lack proper education and vocation for the spiritual life they are in theory embracing.

It is not about whether the Buddha did or not teach Vinaya.

Frankly speaking it has no value in terms of what this forum is about, as it does not provide a proper thesis or evidence to believe Vinaya is an illegitimate aspect of EBTs.

I will sketch up a summary of Bhante Sravasti Dhammika’s ideas in that book and start a topic to discuss it here, maybe within the Watercooler category.

In a nutshell, if you read Bhante Dhammika’s book as a support for the conspiracy theory that Vinaya is a bad thing bad people stuck into Buddhism you are not reading it correctly.

It is mistake like judging the value or relevance of law in a give society by going through the crime news of the local newspaper! :smile:

So, tell us, how do you relate what you read in the Bhikkhu Vibhanga two years ago to what Bhante Sravasti Dhammika is saying in his book?

How did his book affect your practice?

How does Bhante Sravasti Dhammika’s book relate to the EBTs?

This book confirms what I already progressively discovered since entering the world of Buddhism via, first the Mahayana Tibetan vehicle and then the Theravada vehicle, which is that after the Buddha passed away people made religions out of the Dhamma with all their trappings as I had seen them in Catholicism.
In all these religions the priests, the monks, etc. whoever has some authority often, fortunately not always, become more interested in the rules and the rituals. That is what Banthe Dhammika clearly says for Theravada.

To come back to the Vinaya. I consider it is not part of the Dhamma because it was not existing during the 1st twenty years of the Buddha teachings. It came to life progressively during and after his life. Many people become free from Dukkha during these twenty years including I believe, Sariputta and Moggallana.

Of course the Vinaya has some usefulness for some people but it is not mandatory to follow it in order to be free from Dukkha (the aim of the Dhamma).

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Does it mean you don’t see the gradual training rendered in DN2 and its parallels in Chinese, Sanskrit, etc as legitimate or traceable to the Buddha?

Could you provide EBT evidence for an early model of awakening in which no formal renunciation and adherence to virtue is not recorded as being promoted by the Buddha?

Do you suggest Buddha’s foremost disciples were not necessarily behaving and going about their life as contemplatives well within the overal moral boundaries set by what is now codified in the Vinaya’s training rules (aka Patimokkha)?

:anjal: