Bhante Sujato Pali Course 2023: lesson 5

Thread for discussing chapter 5 of Warder for the class on August 29.

Meeting ID: 869 8997 6290
Passcode: 2023

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No question, yet, as I’ve just finished reading Meiland. Have to do Learn Pali and Aj Brahmali before I can conclude my list of questions.

However, while reading Meiland, I want to ‘practice’ what I’ve learnt so far…

mā maṃ paridevayasi

:grin: :grin: :grin:

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Do we have different sentences in Pali for these 4 situations?

  1. I love you
  2. I love him
  3. I love her
  4. I love it (neuter)

Or all of them are all just “taṁ kāmemi” and we have to base on context?

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Irrelevant but related to your question :slight_smile:

The sentence ‘I love you’ was usually the first one I tried to know when I learnt a foreign language. Somehow, this time I forgot my own habit :grin: Perhaps the Pali studies has kept my brain cells too occupied with the word ‘parideva’ :grin: :laughing: :rofl:

Pali does have pronouns for the things you have asked. You may not have gotten up to them in your textbook yet.

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In the vocab, Warder gives for nirodho a range of meanings including cessation, peace of mind, and calm. Are the second and third ever borne out in an obvious way anywhere in the texts? The DPD doesn’t any such sense for nirodho. I have also never found any so far in my readings.

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Lol.

Per Stephen’s answer, yes there are different forms of the pronoun. As it happens though, the relevant accusative singular pronouns are all taṁ, although we can also use tvaṁ for second person and tad for neuter. So in most cases we will have to rely on context.

Indeed, the primary sense is always “cessation”, although of course since this is the cessation of dukkha, Warder’s secondary senses are not far off. Perhaps he gave these as a help for people in his context who were not familar with the positive connotations of cessation.

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It’s a bit strange (to me) that the Aorist is used for the imperative mood! Am I reading that right? Any veterans have a clever way for remembering this?

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The aorist is used for a prohibitive construction with ‘mā’.
Is this what you mean?

(With this construction it does not have any sense of past. )

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Ah I see. Only in that construction. For the usual (positive) imperative, we use… the present tense?

It’s a bit strange that Warder is introducing “Don’t” without formally introducing the imperative first :confused:

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Pali does have an imperative, with its own set of endings. It’s often used in the 2nd person.

Perhaps you haven’t arrived at this yet in Warder.

(The ‘don’t’ construction is often mā plus aorist)

PS I’m pretty amazed you are all up to aorist in one month of Pali study!)

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Ah! The very next lesson. Still strange to give “Don’t” before “Do” … But at least I “won’t” have to wait long :grin:

So, I guess you can’t use na or ma with the imperative?

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No, mā is not used with the imperative mood.
It’s only that special construction with the aorist.

(It’s possible that the mā prohibitive sometimes takes present indicative, if I recall. )

Maybe Warder, in his infinite wisdom…, has introduced the mā prohibitive because he has tied it to his presentation of the aorist?
Not sure, in any case it’s important to remember that the aorist used in this special way does not have a past sense.

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PS, I think it’s also important to keep in mind that the imperative often does not have a commanding sense, but rather a polite one.
Perhaps this is sometimes called ‘benedictive’?
Not sure
(I know Sanskrit has a distinct Benedictive mood. In Pali the imperative often has this feel. )

E.g. “Opammam karohi” means less “make a simile” and more, “could you please make a simile”…

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Mā h’eva mayaṁ taṁ sammussimhā!

(Is that correct??)

I don’t recall ever seeing a verb like that.
Where did you find it?
How would you translate that sentence?

:see_no_evil: I was trying to say “May we not forget it!” I found sammuss- in the DPD for “to forget” and tried to make it into the 1st person plural aorist…

I think that sense would be conveyed with the imperative form of dhāreti.
“Dhāretha”= you all should remember

Steady on now!

Yes, but we haven’t learned the imperative yet :wink: So I was trying to keep it within the lesson (Mā + aorist, and pronouns)

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Alam, Khemarata, mā soci mā paridevi…

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