Bhante Sujato Pali Course 2023: Warder lesson 12

In the English to Pāḷi exercises, we have “What do you think, then, Great King?” could I use dative + hoti for this? Something like, “Attha kho taṃ kiṃ mahārājāya hoti?”

(Also, given the answer key, I don’t see why Warder added “then” to the English…)

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It’s not my work. It’s @stu’s – the webmaster of Wisdom and Wonders. :heart:

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Dative is rañño, and no, that isn’t how it’s used. It’s not something people say to each other, it’s how narrative text is framed.

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Sorry for cutting it a bit close to class - (site was closed to replies earlier.)

Some of my Pali>Eng translations were so far off the mark from the answer key - just wanted to check if they were at all plausible or even remotely correctly constructed. (Apologies in advance, where applicable.)

Mine: Atha kho dvārena bhagavā nikkhami Gotamadvāraṃ ti nāma ahosi.
JK: atha kho yena dvārena bhagavā nikkhami taṃ Gotamadvāraṃ nāma ahosi

Mine: Atha kho maññati te mahārāja?
JK: taṃ kiṃ maññasi mahārāja

Mine: Mayaṃ atthaya dissāma bhavatassa Gotamassa ettha āggachi.
JK: Mayaṃ bhavantaṃ Gotamaṃ dassanāya idh’ upsaṇkantā.

The word means opportunity OR permission doesn’t it?

Mine: Atha kho dvārena bhagavā nikkhami Gotamadvāraṃ ti nāma ahosi.
JK: atha kho yena dvārena bhagavā nikkhami taṃ Gotamadvāraṃ nāma ahosi

Your solution is missing the pronouns, Karunā. You need the yena and the taṃ to tie these two clauses together.

Mine: Atha kho maññati te mahārāja?
JK: taṃ kiṃ maññasi mahārāja

You need 2nd person ‘you think’ maññasi, not 3rd person ‘he thinks’ maññati. Also there is nothing to indicate that there is a question here - that’s where the taṃ kiṃ comes in. Remember, there are no question marks in Pāḷi.

Mine: Mayaṃ atthaya dissāma bhavatassa Gotamassa ettha āggachi.
JK: Mayaṃ bhavantaṃ Gotamaṃ dassanāya idh’ upsaṇkantā.

Sorry, I can’t really make sense of your sentence. It has two main verbs in it for starters. ‘We are seen’ dissāma, and ‘he came’ āgacchi.
In the solution provided, dassanāya is dative of purpose ‘in order to see’ or ‘for the seeing of’. And the main part of sentence is mayaṃ upasaṅkantā, ‘we have come’, where a past participle and an implied verb ‘to be’ create the immediate past tense.

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I am devoting time to sorting out my understanding of correlative constructions. I had never realised that the paired pronouns didn’t need to agree in case … no wonder I keep missing them when reading … I was only looking out for pronouns that rhymed, yam tam, yena tena etc.

I looked back at the two other textbooks and found that Gair and Karunatilake don’t mention this aspect of the construction in their discussion (have yet to read through the texts for Lesson II tho) and that de Silva doesn’t discuss the construction at all, tho she does give a lot of examples that show differences in case. Maybe, John, you dealt with this during the 6 months I was away from class. Anyway, I have a couple of questions about Warder’s more comprehensive discussion:

One

Hoti kho so samayo yaṃ … ayaṃ loko vivaṭṭati
(There is indeed the time that … this world evolves)

In this example from Warder p72 the order of the clauses is reversed to make the speech elevated, so the main clause (Mr Pali calls this the demonstrative clause) comes first. Thus I think yam must be a demonstrative pronoun and *ayam) a relative one. Yet *ya(d) was presented as a relative pronoun. :thinking: Why isn’t the sentence

Hoti kho so samayo ayaa … yaṃ loko vivaṭṭati?

Two
On p73 Warder gives us

Yena yena gacchati …

So this could be finished … tena tena purisā upasamkamanti …?
& yena yena … tena tena are indeclinable or instrumental here?
& why does the distinction matter anyway?

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Looking at the Pali to English exercise, I’ve found possibly four sentences with correlative constructions. Questions:

  1. Are these all correlative, and did I miss any?
  2. Have I identified DEMonstrative and RELative pronouns correctly?

yen’ REL ajja samaṇo Gotamo dvārena nikkhamissati taṃ DEM Gotamadvāraṃ nāma bhavissati
Through which gate the ascetic Gotama will leave today, that will be called ‘the Gotama Gate.’

mayaṃ yaṃ REL icchissāma taṃ DEM karissāma
We will do what we want.

kissa REL nu kho me idaṃ DEL kammassa phalaṃ, kissa DEM kammassa vipāko *
Of what action of mine is this the fruit, of what action (is this) the result?
*NOT part of the correlative structure, but a DEM that refers back to a previous sentence.

yaṃ REL kho ‘ssa na kkhamati taṃ DEM pajahati
What is not pleasing to him, that he gives up.

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Hi Gillian, of the four examples you gave, the 3rd one is not a correlative construction. Kissa is just a straightforward interrogative pronoun, making the sentence a question, and there is no relative or demonstrative pronoun in the sentence. The rest are all correct.

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Yam is a relative pronoun, tam is demonstrative.

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Thank you John, that has helped. :smiley:

Did you see my questions One and Two in the post immediately above?

And I’m afraid I have more (about the English to Pali exercise):

Three
yam REL (assa) khamati taṃ DEM khādati
He eats what he likes.
Is assa the dative of ayam? What might be the reason Aj Brahmali included it in his translation?

Four
Then (atha) the gate by which the fortunate one left was named Gotama Gate
Kelly: atha kho yena REL dvārena bhagavā nikkhami taṃ DEM Gotamadvāraṃ nāma ahosi
Brahmali: atha kho Bhagavā yena REL dvārena nikkhami, taṃ DEM Gotamadvāraṃ nāma ahosi
Is the antecedent one word, dvārena? Or a phrase, dvārena bhagavā nikkhami/bhagavā … dvārena nikkhami? Why put Bhagavā infront of yena* – as a mark of respect?

Are phrases even a thing in Pali? (I think Dheerayupa has already touched on this somewhere.)

Five
He teaches the doctrine for “extinction”
Brahmali: so nibbānāya/parinibbānāya dhammaṃ deseti
Kelly: nibbānāya dhammaṃ deseti
The English sentence completely puzzled me, but it makes better sense in Pali. (So I must have learned something!). How about an Engish rendering such as:
“He teaches how to achieve enlightenment.” / “He teaches the principle of finding enlightenment?”

Three
yam REL (assa) khamati taṃ DEM khādati
He eats what he likes.
Is assa the dative of ayam? What might be the reason Aj Brahmali included it in his translation?

Yes, here assa is one of the dative/genitive forms for ayaṃ (along with imassa and imissa). It is also a possible dative/genitive form for the neuter equivalent of ayaṃ, idaṃ. So here, Ven Brahmali is turning the English example into “What is pleasing to him, that he eats.”
[Trap for the unwary: In this class we haven’t got to optatives yet, but when we do, you will find that assa also is 3rd pers sing optative of verb atthi.]

Four Why put Bhagavā infront of yena* – as a mark of respect?

I think it’s just a matter of style - no hidden meaning here. Word order is not so important in Pāli.

Five. How about an Engish rendering such as:
“He teaches how to achieve enlightenment.” / “He teaches the principle of finding enlightenment?”

Yes, these are fine. Warder’s somewhat cryptic English sentence is encouraging us to use the “dative of purpose” which is what Ven Brahmali and I did with nibbānāya.

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I was avoiding answering your One and Two questions, Gillian, because they are a little tricky and I’m not sure I can explain them clearly! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

One

Hoti kho so samayo yaṃ … ayaṃ loko vivaṭṭati
(There is indeed the time that … this world evolves)

Warder is using this as an example of a relative pronun (here yaṃ) being used as an indeclinable, so it is not strictly a relative … correlative clause. Yaṃ doesn’t have a case role in the clause that follows ayam loko vivaṭṭati, it just connects it with the previous phrase.

Two Yena yena gacchati …
Here the instrumental relative yena is used simply as an indeclinable meaning “where”. The doubling gives the phrase a distributative sense “wherever”.

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Yes, certainly the neuter relative pronoun (yam) takes on a whole group of possible meanings, ‘when, since, after’ etc.
(All listed in PED entry of ‘ya’, ‘use of nt. forms’.

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Thank you John for your patience. All you answers make sense except for one

Yes, Warder explained the distributive meaning clearly, but I was asking

The distributive indeclinable yena yena is not something that is part of the idiom yena … tena … At least certainly not anything I’ve seen in the canon.

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