Bhante Sujato Pali Course 2023: Warder lesson 9

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Hi all,

Either I am so good (which is a pipe dream) or my hay fever is so bad that my brain is not functioning properly. There are only 6 questions so far as I’m still struggling to do the exercise.

Question 1: kāyā hāyanti
= The bodies are diminished.

hāyanti can be the plural verb form for 3rd person, and appears to be an active voice form. How can we tell, in real life (not after a lesson on present passive conjugation), whether it is an active or passive?

Question 2: ayaṃ kho sā brāhmaṇa paññā
= This, brahmin, is that wisdom.

Not a real question, but more like a complaint. Out of context, this sentence sounds so ridiculous to me, a non-native speaker, that I wasn’t sure I got the right interpretation, let alone translation!

Question 3: saccaṃ Nigrodha bhāsitā te esā vācā (interrogative)
= Is it true, Nigrodha, (that) this speech has been spoken by you?

How can we know that bhāsitā here is a past participle, not a noun? I was confused as my first thought was that it was a noun, but then I couldn’t find a verb as vācā is a noun.

Question 4: atthi kho bho Maṇikā nāma vijjā
= There is, Sir, an art called ‘Maṇikā’.

Is this acceptable? (it sounds more natural to me) “Sir, there is/exists a branch of knowledge called Maṇikā.”

Question 5: saññā ca vedanā ca niruddhā honti
= Perception and feeling have stopped.

Is this acceptable? (it sounds more like a description of a state of meditation to me :blush:) “The perception and the feeling have (been) stopped/diminished.”

Question 6: evaṃ pi kho Sunakkhatto mayā vuccamāno apakkami
= Sunakkhatta, even (pi ) (when) being spoken to thus by me, left.

Not a question. Just to share a feeling of “What sentence!” However, if anyone can kindly explain the whole sentence (parsing + explanation), I’d be totally grateful.

Edited After giving it some thoughts, I’d like to ask if this is possible: " Even while I was speaking to him, Sunakkhatta left"?

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Just a quick note to say that the internet here at Dhammasara has been a bit patchy, so if we’re not in class today that is what happened! :grinning:

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Hope the internet will have been ‘patched’ by the time the class starts. :slight_smile:

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Two more questions, please:

Question 7: These phenomena are abandoned
= Ime (or ete) dhammā pahīyanti.

Can I use chaḍḍīyanti? = Ime dhammā chaḍḍīyanti.

Question 8: He is called an ascetic
= Ayaṃ/ so vuccati samaṇo.

Would this word order be ok? Ayaṃ samaṇo vuccati.

Thanks a million :pray:

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Hello Dheerayupa. I’ll attempt a few answers:

Q1. hāyati(and hīyati) are both passive of jahati. There’s no active voice form.

Q2. Correct. You’re right, it looks weird out of context.

Q3. You answered the question yourself. There’s no verb if you take bhāsitā as a noun.

Q4. Very acceptable.

Q5. Ditto

Q6. Ditto

Q7. Seems like an unusual use of chaḍḍeti likely not found elsewhere in the canon.

Q8. Yes, that order is ok

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thank you so much :slight_smile: :sunflower:

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It was certainly helpful for me, thanks! Not across the material enough to comment on the accuracy myself but a nice summary merging Warder and the Learn Pali Youtube. Would be very helpful to have the other lessons as well. You could write a “Companion to warder for the struggling student”!

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It would be titled “Companion to Warder by a struggling student” :grin: :laughing: :rofl:

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I was inspired by Bhante’s request for additional, non-English translations of the pāli. I was curious about my knee-jerk reaction (disguised as a comment during class) about the French language avoiding the passive tense at all cost when it comes to pāli.

Of course, I know absolutely nothing about how pāli would be translated into French. So I did some digging.

I found very few resources of pāli translated into French, other than some of the translations Bhante & his team have made available on Sutta Central (deep bow). Apparently, we owe one (definitive?) French translation of about 40 suttas to Môhan Wijayaratna. Would love to see these; too expensive to order and obtain from France.

There are also three other translators I found through various and obscure search terms on google: Christian Maës, Michel Proulx, and Rémy (first name?). In fact, Bhante cites Maës’ translations at least once on Sutta Central. Also, in the example below, the “buddha-vacana.org” source used in Sutta Central is identical to Rémy’s translation I found elsewhere. So probably they are one and the same.

All of that said, below is a comparison of English and French translations for:
MN 2
Atthi, bhikkhave, āsavā dassanā pahātabbā…

  1. And what are the defilements that should be given up by seeing? (Bhante)

  2. Bhikkhus, there are taints that should be abandoned by seeing. (Bhikkhu Bodhi)

  3. Il y a, bhikkhus, des impuretés mentales à être abandonnées par vision. (Rémy)

  4. Il y a, moines, des contaminations qu’il faut éliminer par la vision. (Christian Maës)

  5. Et que sont les fermentations qu’il faut abandonner en les voyant? (Michel Proulx)

I’m hardly in a position to dissect the pāli, but fairly certain that we’re seeing the instrumental with a passive construction.

Interestingly, in (3), Rémy uses an awkward passive construction which is, literally, correct. By contrast, in (1) and (2), Maës and Proulx, respectively, use an active construction il faut (active verb falloir) + verb infinitive (éliminer or abandonner).

Which is a very long way of saying that my first reaction may be correct. (Way up at the top of this thread.) I found another example in DN 16 but shall spare you the misery.

If I read more suttas in French, I have to think I would find “workarounds” for some of the pāli passive constructions as they would seem really awkward in French. Now that’s a great next project for me! In the meantime, I think I’ll re-read Proust to see how he word-smithed passive constructions.

Does anyone else know of French translations?

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On SuttaCentral there are some French translations by noeismet and by sekha.

Added:
Here is the entire statistics on French translations on SuttaCentral: SuttaCentral

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Me too. It’s a great strategy for helping us students see that word for word translations can’t cut it.

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It says 5%. Just taking that pie chart as an example, does it mean that on SC, 5% of the ebts are available in French? Or alternatively that 5% of of the French translations available on SC are directly from Pali and 95% from another language such as English?

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It says that 5% of all root texts hosted on SC are available in French translation—ebt and non-ebt, Pali and non-Pali. ALL.

It also includes texts of the “site” folder, i.e. one file with all the terms for the user interface (French users can already browse SuttaCentral in their own language), as well as the various info pages and essays hosted on SuttaCentral.

This is how I understand it.

See for comparison English with 32% or German with 28%. It’s a bit of a dire situation for French … but there are Bilara projects actively working to change this!

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These are legendary, and for practical purposes lost. We’ve tried to contact the translator to no avail, and they are only available, if at all, from the publisher.

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I’ve been trying, starting with Lesson 1. However, at the moment, my aging brain cells need nearly 30 hours to prepare for class! I’m not sure where I could get more ‘hours’ to do previous lessons, but as soon as I can, I’ll post them here. (I’m still working part-time as well as having chickens, a dog, a cat and a husband to feed.)

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Oh dear pls don’t do anything extra, I was just interested to see your previous notes as they were. I take my own notes but it’s hard to cover all the exceptions to the exceptions! Pls don’t do anything extra but would appreciate seeing anything you do for your own purposes!

Thanks,

Has

| Dheerayupa
September 29 |

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Hasantha:

Would be very helpful to have the other lessons as well.

I’ve been trying, starting with Lesson 1. However, at the moment, my aging brain cells need nearly 30 hours to prepare for class! I’m not sure where I could get more ‘hours’ to do previous lessons, but as soon as I can, I’ll post them here. (I’m still working part-time as well as having chickens, a dog, a cat and a husband to feed.)

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Pleased to report I successfully (and amazingly, within days from an Australian location) obtained the first book of his translations for a total cost of US $23.00. Granted, it was using Amazon Prime which not too many people would consider an ethical choice. Plus is it really necessary to incur the carbon debt the way I just did for this one small book. That said, I am happy and pleased to be reading these translations:
A. II 172-174
A. III 57, 410-417
A. IV 179-187, 190-194, 281-285
A. V 185-189, 193-195
D. I 111-149
D. II 55-71
M. II 106-112
M. III 215-222
S. II 16-17, 25-26, 94-95, 104-107
S. III 1-5, 14-18, 140-143
UD., 47
As the second of his books appears equally obtainable, I will eventually order that one too (ostensibly from the same Australian warehouse/bookstore).
The translations flow beautifully (i.e., not “forced” French) and wonderfully enhance my understanding of the pāli.

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Wow- could you post the details of the book, and possibly a link to where you purchased it?
Thanks!

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Stephen:
ISBN-13 978-2020475532
Publisher POINTS
Edition Points sagesses
Publication Date April 13, 2001

I used the default distributor Amazon directed me to (Amazon UK). This is the exact link (Buy New, $20.13):
https://www.amazon.com/Entretiens-Bouddha-Traduction-Intgrale-Bouddhique/dp/2020475537/ref=monarch_sidesheet

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Question from the lesson 9 exercise:
mālaṃ ādāya yena sālā ten’ upasaṅkamiṃsu

sālā reads either as nominative or instrumental, correct? But doesn’t upasaṅkamati take the accusative per DPD?

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