Bhikkhu Bodhi on Nibbāna

[Jasudho]

Hi Dhabba,

Thanks.

Sariputta says he entered into concentration – so there had to be some consciousness, as even he said was perceiving, is all I’m saying.

The only state I’m aware off in the suttas in which consciousness (hence any perception) is utterly absent is with saññāvedayitanirodha and those rare beings who are labeled non-percipient.

Definitely, subtle stuff here and I’m not sure “where in existence” is an applicable question since what’;s being described is certainly beyond the five senses. Can we even apply “where” to the 1st jhana?

Also, as in the Bāhiya Sutta, Ud1.10:
"When you’re not ‘in that’, you won’t be in this world or the world beyond or between the two. "

Not being in these worlds can refer to not being stuck in this world, another world after rebirth, or in between death and re-birth.
This was said while Bāhiya was still alive and can apply in a similar way to Sariputta’s comments here.

Just saying…

[yeshe.tenley]

@Dhabba

But exactly where in existence is this perceiving taking place?

What if the perception was not of existence nor of non-existence nor both nor neither? What if the perception was not of perception nor of non-perception nor both nor neither? How could such a question arise?

[Dhabba]

@Jasudho

Definitely, subtle stuff here and I’m not sure “where in existence” is an applicable question since what’;s being described is certainly beyond the five senses. Can we even apply “where” to the 1st jhana?

Since the first jhana corresponds the first rupa loka realm where the Brahma gods reside and the 3 other jhanas corresponds to the various Rupa loka realms and their inhabitants;

We can say that all the jhanas always corresponds to a certain plane of existence. Same goes for the formless realms.

Sāriputta is still perceiving, while beyond any element or plane of existence, since he mentioned all the 4 arupa loka jhanas:

nor the sphere of infinite space,
nor the sphere of infinite consciousness,
nor the sphere of nothingness,
nor the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception,
nor this world,
nor the other world;
yet, I was perceiving.

@Jasudho

Also, as in the Bāhiya Sutta, Ud1.10:

"When you’re not ‘in that’, you won’t be in this world or the world beyond or between the two. "

Bāhiya Sutta Ud 1.10 also has the following:

Where water and earth,

“Yattha āpo ca pathavī,

fire and air find no footing:

tejo vāyo na gādhati;

there no star does shine,

Na tattha sukkā jotanti,

nor does the sun shed its light;

ādicco nappakāsati;

there the moon glows not,

Na tattha candimā bhāti,

yet no darkness is found.

tamo tattha na vijjati.

Yet no darkness is found.

This ”yet no darkness is found”: (tamo tattha na vijjati) is very important.

There is no sun light, no moon that glows, yet no darkness is to be found there.

It sounds a lot like:

Consciousness where nothing appears, infinite, luminous all-round—that is what does not fall within the scope of experience characterized by earth, water, fire, air, creatures, gods, the Progenitor, Brahmā, the gods of streaming radiance, the gods replete with glory, the gods of abundant fruit, the Vanquisher, and the all.

[yeshe.tenley]

@Dhabba

Consciousness where nothing appears, infinite, luminous all-round—that is what does not fall within the scope of experience characterized by earth, water, fire, air, creatures, gods, the Progenitor, Brahmā, the gods of streaming radiance, the gods replete with glory, the gods of abundant fruit, the Vanquisher, and the all.

What is this from? Consciousness is just one of the aggregates and not suitable to cling to or crave after. It isn’t a self nor can a self be found in it. Grasping after consciousness as the self acts as a condition for the arising of future suffering. Viewing an awakened one as consciousness that survives the breakup and decay of a physical body; this too has to be let go of and given up. At least that is how it appears to this mistaken and feeble mind.

[Dhabba]

It is from MN 49

Viññāṇaṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbato pabhaṁ =
Consciousness where nothing appears, infinite, luminous all-round

Anidassanaṁ is a synonym for Nibbāna in: SN 43.14 1

The invisible (Anidassanañca) …
that in which nothing appears …
Anidassanañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anidassanagāmiñca maggaṁ.
Taṁ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, anidassanaṁ …pe….

The 4th or 5th time I’m mentioning this, in this thread.

(The charger on my iPad does not work,
I have 4% left - see you all later on)

[Jasudho]

@Dhabba

Sāriputta is still perceiving, while beyond any element or plane of existence, since he mentioned all the 4 arupa loka jhanas:

I agree with what you wrote about the jhanas, however I’d say he wasn’t “beyond any…plane of existence” because he was still in the human realm (bhava) – no matter what his perceptions were or were not.

@Dhabba

There is no sun light, no moon that glows, yet no darkness is to be found there.

It sounds a lot like:

Consciousness where nothing appears, infinite, luminous all-round—that is what does not fall within the scope of experience characterized by earth, water, fire, air, creatures, gods, the Progenitor, Brahmā, the gods of streaming radiance, the gods replete with glory, the gods of abundant fruit, the Vanquisher, and the all.

Yes, and this boundless, luminous all around are descriptions used to refer to some jhana states and particularly the 2nd formless attainment.
As in SN28.6:

““Reverend, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, I entered and remained in the dimension of infinite consciousness. …” …
“idhāhaṁ, āvuso, sabbaso ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ samatikkamma anantaṁ viññāṇanti viññāṇañcāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharāmi …pe…”

Regarding

@Dhabba

Viññāṇaṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbato pabhaṁ =
Consciousness where nothing appears, infinite, luminous all-round

See

Whose consciousness is invisible, infinite, and all-radiant?

Continuing discussion of a number of issues raised by MN 49 Brahmanimantanika from here: And here: We have now come to the famous line: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ Like the previous verse on the sun and moon, this straddles the line between verse and prose. While in Ven Bodhi’s translation it is set as verse, the Pali text contains no close -ti that would confirm it was meant as verse. It’s not unlikely that it, too, was a verse fragment loosely used in a prose sentenc…

and

Viññāṇa anidassana: the state of boundless consciousness

(This essay is also available in the MettāShelf Library in various formats.) Introduction A wide range of opinions has long surrounded two innocent Pali words: viññāṇa anidassana. They are translated variously, as ‘consciousness that is without feature / signless / invisible / non-manifesting / makes no showing / can not be characterized’, et cetera. This variety already indicates that their meaning is somewhat obscure. This obscurity has, however, not stopped interpreters from giving the words…

Ven. Thanissaro sees it as a kind of consciousness beyond time and space and relates it to nibbāna, yet there are significant differences expressed in these essays.

We’ll keep practicing and someday we’ll really know.
Let’s talk then.

[yeshe.tenley]

@Jasudho

Yes, and this boundless, luminous all around are descriptions used to refer to some jhana states and particularly the 2nd formless attainment.

Yes, this makes sense. Also, it seems quite unclear whether it is the Tathagata speaking or Brahma in that verse; I tend to think it was the latter, but what do I know anyway. The Teacher instructed again and again that it is inappropriate to appropriate the mind or consciousness as the self

[NgXinZhao]

@yeshe.tenley

logic used here is exactly the same as used by the Teacher in SN 22.86. The only difference is the subject of analysis. In SN 22.86 it is the Tathagata whereas here it is just consciousness. Supposing the logic is valid for the former, but not for the latter is the view of the substantial aggregates which utterly cease at death to my limited mind. The view of the substantial aggregates utterly ceasing at death is inappropriate according to what I understand the Teacher to have said. I have confidence that what the Teacher said is correct.

Exactly this post which prompted my attempts to guide you to see that the logic used for the conventionally designated person or self or Buddha is not the same logic to be used for the 5 aggregates or 6 sense contacts.

The Buddha or self cannot be found, cannot apply conditionality as well as they are just concepts. But the 6 sense contacts are vividly appearing and conditioned, thus can be said to completely cease.

You in the quoted post above tried with the logic that since 6 sense contact are empty, they cannot be found and thus cannot be described as arising or ceasing, thus denying that total cessation is possible. That is what I spend a lot of post refuting and at least you admitted that the 6 sense contacts are arising and ceasing.

You conflate self with 6 sense contacts with the vague usage of emptiness, empty of what? empty of self. And since self is the concept which is not existent, it is not at the same level as the 6 sense contacts.

@Jasudho

AN10.7:
" ‘The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.

As quoted above, the nature of parinibbāna is total cessation. No 6 sense contacts, no rebirth, no 5 aggregates, nothing outside of 5 aggregates or 6 sense contacts, no eternal self, no special consciousness, no dhammakaya. That’s what many monastics here agree upon. I think this is very clear given our history of interaction. Also, you know what I mean by parinibbāna as death of arahant or break of the 5 aggregates of the arahant, we went there, don’t restart this.

@Dhabba

Sāriputta is still perceiving, while beyond any element or plane of existence, since he mentioned all the 4 arupa loka jhanas:

Your logic would imply that nibbana is a form of final rebirth into an eternal heaven. When it’s supposed to be end of rebirth.

[Sunyo]

@yeshe.tenley

In other suttas, the Teacher clarifies that this is not about death and that he defines the world like this:

Hi

Well, the word ‘world’ has different meanings in the corpus. It doesn’t have a single meaning throughout.

Either way, it doesn’t matter for this discussion, because the word ‘world’ (loka) isn’t in the Pali of the Udana passage. It’s in Sujato’s translation but that translates different Pali words that here more directly mean a life in this realm or another. So the AN9.38 passage you are quoting is unrelated to this for multiple reasons.

Anyway, I’ll respectfully step out of this conversation because it has nothing to do with Bodhi’s views on nibbana. From what I remember, I think he agrees that there is suffering after enlightenment.

[stephen]

If there is still debate after 200+ posts on whether there was still suffering for the Buddha after Enlightenment, one only need to look at the Mahaparinibbana Sutta , Digha Nikaya.

Perhaps this has been mentioned before.

[yeshe.tenley]

Hello Venerable!

@NgXinZhao

The Buddha or self cannot be found, cannot apply conditionality as well as they are just concepts. But the 6 sense contacts are vividly appearing and conditioned, thus can be said to completely cease.

Are you saying that the Teacher did not appear vividly or that Ananda couldn’t recognize the Buddha? Are you saying the Buddha was unconditioned? Are you saying chariots don’t appear vividly or that chariots are unconditioned? Beings appear vividly just like the six sense contacts appear vividly. Beings, chariots, and the six sense contacts are all nonetheless void, hollow and insubstantial; they cannot be found when looked for with analysis.

@NgXinZhao

You in the quoted post above tried with the logic that since 6 sense contact are empty, they cannot be found and thus cannot be described as arising or ceasing, thus denying that total cessation is possible.

I don’t think I ever said that the six sense contacts never arise nor cease. Do you see where I said that? Please point it out so I can correct that error.

The six sense contacts arise and cease and yet are completely void, hollow and insubstantial when looked for with analysis. In exactly the same way persons are born and die and yet they can’t be found when looked for with analysis.

@NgXinZhao

That is what I spend a lot of post refuting and at least you admitted that the 6 sense contacts are arising and ceasing.

Yes! I admit, I admit! I don’t think I’ve ever not admitted this

@NgXinZhao

You conflate self with 6 sense contacts with the vague usage of emptiness, empty of what? empty of self. And since self is the concept which is not existent, it is not at the same level as the 6 sense contacts.

No, I quoted sutta in the Pali canon where the six sense contacts are described as void, hollow and completely insubstantial when looked for with analysis. Just like when you go looking for the heartwood of a banana tree you can’t find it no matter how many layers you peel back. In just that way I think the six sense contacts are void, hollow and completely insubstantial just as the Teacher described.

Yes, the six sense contacts and the self and persons and chariots all have this same thing in common: they appear vividly, but when looked for with analysis they nonetheless cannot be found. This is all explained by the Teacher in the Pali canon and can be verified in the here and now.

The various abhidhammas were created precisely to refute this claim. How? By supposing ontologically fundamental and substantial parts of all things that allow the aggregates to exist in a substantial manner unlike the self which was regarded as non-existent precisely as I understand you to be saying. They concocted huge portions of metaphysical speculation to make concrete this claim of real and substantial aggregates in contrast to the non-existent self. To my mind the distinction you are making is of the same cloth.

[yeshe.tenley]

@stephen

the Buddha after Enlightenment

Who is this Buddha after enlightenment? Does he appear?

[yeshe.tenley]

@NgXinZhao

No 6 sense contacts, no rebirth, no 5 aggregates, nothing outside of 5 aggregates or 6 sense contacts, no eternal self, no special consciousness, no dhammakaya.

This almost sounds like a perfection of wisdom sutra to my mind!

[NgXinZhao]

@yeshe.tenley

When analyzed it appears void, hollow and completely insubstantial like a bubble, a mirage, a banana tree, a magic trick. The more you investigate the mind, looking at it closer and closer, it appears void and hollow and completely insubstantial. If you use the definition of ‘real’ I proposed, then it could blamelessly be said that the mind is not real. Being not real and not found when looked for how can it ever be said to truly cease?

Maybe I stopped too soon, I meant this then.

Here you used the notion of cannot be found, because empty, therefore cannot truly cease, yet just now you said can arise and cease.

Also, you’re still conflating self with 6 sense contacts.

Self is a concept, if we use conventional self, we are using it as a short hand for the 5 aggregates. When it cannot be found if looked for, it refers to the ultimate self cannot be found in the 5 aggregates. Because ultimately self doesn’t exist.

Since what is conditioned can cease when conditions are gone, same too for the 6 sense contacts, 5 aggregates, when conditions for rebirth is no more, they totally cease without arising again, at latest at the death of an arahant, because before that the consciousness and name and form reinforce each other, to continue the existence of an arahant. Or else at enlightenment, the enlightened person would go poof, disappear or die immediately.

I can’t believe I had to repeat the above so many times.

[NgXinZhao]

@yeshe.tenley

but when looked for with analysis they nonetheless cannot be found.

Perhaps I should switch tactics and ask for exactly the sutta which supports the claim that hollow means cannot be found under analysis, applied to the 6 sense bases, not to the self concept. I think this is where you slip in mahayana without realizing it.

[stephen]

@yeshe.tenley

Who is this Buddha after enlightenment? Does he appear?

Definitely have a look at the sutta- it describes the Buddha’s final time before parinibbana.

[yeshe.tenley]

@NgXinZhao

Maybe I stopped too soon, I meant this then.

Here you used the notion of cannot be found, because empty, therefore cannot truly cease, yet just now you said can arise and cease.

Yes, in just this way the Teacher said “does not exist” after nibbana is not appropriate to declare of the Tathagata. What cannot truly be found under analysis in life; it isn’t appropriate to say that such truly ceases. However, this doesn’t negate mere arising and ceasing. The aggregates, chariots, people, when not subject to analysis all appear as arising and ceasing. Nonetheless, when subject to analysis they cannot be found and thus cannot be said to truly cease. Hope that is clear now. :pray"

@NgXinZhao

Self is a concept, if we use conventional self, we are using it as a short hand for the 5 aggregates. When it cannot be found if looked for, it refers to the ultimate self cannot be found in the 5 aggregates. Because ultimately self doesn’t exist.

Agreed! Just so for the aggregates themselves. They are concepts; the aggregate of form cannot be found when looked for; ultimately the aggregate of form doesn’t exist. What does that mean? It means when looked for you can’t find it.

@NgXinZhao

I can’t believe I had to repeat the above so many times.

I apologize for my dull wittedness and inability to understand Venerable.

[yeshe.tenley]

@NgXinZhao

Perhaps I should switch tactics and ask for exactly the sutta which supports the claim that hollow means cannot be found under analysis, applied to the 6 sense bases, not to the self concept. I think this is where you slip in mahayana without realizing it.

I’m not slipping in Mahayana to my mind Venerable. You seem quite averse to Mahayana, but I don’t think this has much of all to do with the bodhisattva path. I’m sorry if my name and the fact that I’ve studied Mahayana as well as the Pali canon makes you think less of me or brings up any averse feelings. It is always perfectly understandable and maybe advisable to ignore me as I admit not knowing much of anything at all.

This is about the five aggregates, but the same is said of the six sense contacts if you want that as well let me know.

However you contemplate them,
examining them carefully,
they’re void and hollow
when you look at them closely.
SN 22.95

Examining and looking at them closely I take to be analysis.

[NgXinZhao]

Perhaps I should clarify what does truly cease means to you and find the sutta which says void and hollow means cannot truly cease.

For normal temporary arising and ceasing, do you admit the possibility of ceasing without arising again forever?

[yeshe.tenley]

@NgXinZhao

For normal temporary arising and ceasing, do you admit the possibility of ceasing without arising again forever?

Yes. In fact, I think nothing at all can ever truly arise again. When any single moment passes it does not arise again. Maybe some other moment arises that we can find some similarity with something in the past, but it isn’t truly the same.