Bhikkhuni ordination- Bhikkhuni side is only a rehearsal?

Discussion
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I just came across this video, recently released by the great Thai bhikkhuni Venerable Dhammananda.
In it she posits that the first half of the bhikkhuni ordination, that done by the bhikkhunis, is ‘only a rehearsal’, Including the sanghakamma.
I don’t see how such an argument can be of benefit to the bhikkhuni sangha. I recognise the validity of an argument that bhikkhus alone can perform bhikkhuni ordination but to argue that a bhikkhuni sanghakamma isn’t legit makes me feel quite uncomfortable.

I’d love to hear others thoughts on the function of this argument.

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In the dūtena upasampādetuṁ origin story, Aḍḍhakāsī is described as “bhikkhunīsu pabbajitā” and “upasampajjitukāmā” This does sound to me like the Bhikkhu saṅghakamma was required for her to be considered upasampadā, no? :pray:

That said, the allowance for the monks to give their half of the dual ordination dūtena along with the wording of the announcement and the many Bhikkhunī rules about vuṭṭhāpeti all make it pretty clear that the pavattiniyā’s role is considered more significant than the Bhikkhu’s — even if it is less necessary :sweat_smile:

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Yeah, I don’t know, it seems to me that the majority of the ordination is carried out by the bhikkhunis, including the actually important stuff like vetting and training and supporting the candidate, and the bhikkhus just give a rubber stamp.

Personally I think we should institute this in reverse too: the bhikkhus should visit the bhikkhuni monastery and get their ordination accepted by the bhikkhunis. Nothing in the Vinaya against it.

She is a bhikkhuni once the ordination is done on one side, so I don’t really know think these terms can be applied in this way. Pabbajjā is novice ordination, not half a bhikkhu ordination. I mean, the sense of words shifts, but regardless of how we take them they can’t map one-to-one on the bhikkhu Vinaya, because there’s no corresponding concept.

In any case, the use of this terminology shows that these rules were made by the bhikkhus; the bhikkhunis called their ordination vuṭṭhāpana.

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Do you have a citation for this, Bhante? :pray:

You mean, the use of “upasampadā”? Because this term is used by Bhaddā in Thig 5.9:

‘Ehi bhadde’ti maṁ avaca,
sā me āsūpasampadā.

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At my bhikkhu ordination, which happened a few minutes after a bhikkhunī ordination, I went over to the bhikkhunī sīmā and requested acceptance.

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Cute! Lucky for you! :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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Okay. Had some time to dig into this today and you seem to be correct (and the Venerable Ayya Dhammananda incorrect) on this point.

The second half of the dual ordination begins by declaring the ordinand “ekatoupasampannā bhikkhunisaṅghe visuddhā.”

That an ekatoupasampannā nun is indeed a bhikkhunī is confirmed in, for example in the Vibaṅgha at pli-tv-bu-vb-np4 where a bhikkhunī in the offense is explicitly defined to include the ekatoupasampannā bhikkhunī

The Vinaya commentary (if I’m reading it correctly! :sweat_smile: [edit: I was not]) confirms this and adds that not getting confirmed by the monks is merely a dukkaṭa [edit: see below for the follow-up discussion]

So, the Bhikkhunī Sanghakamma is indeed a real act and not just a “rehearsal” :partying_face:

Given the above, I am inclined to read this to mean that this scrupulous candidate merely wanted to avoid that dukkaṭa by waiting until they could get together a dual saṅgha to do the ceremony. :blush: To which the Buddha, quite sensibly, responded to not wait and get ordained right away. That she can do the confirmation with the monks by messenger. :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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They don’t have to have both sanghas in one place though. The new bhikkhuni is taken on a visit to the bhikkhus. My ordination had both sanghas on one place and we just walked across the hall but I have been to two others where the bhikkhus where in a different sima and the bhikkhunis visit either later that day or a few days later due to travel time. This seems like it would have been the norm in the Buddha’s day.

I am really curious why Venerable Dhammananda would choose to make this argument within a Thai context. It is probably only going to be educated speculation. Is this how Thai Bhikkhu’s understand the ordination? Who is this argument for (seeing as it is in English)?

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Yeah sorry, “get together” in the above was my shorthand for “travel safely” (the circumstance mentioned in the origin story).

Quite possibly. I could do some “field work” and ask around my temple if you like?

Indeed, that is quite puzzling…

Perhaps it was for me. I certainly am learning a bit from this excursion into the Vinaya :nerd_face:

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I’m not seeing this in the reference you linked. Bu np 4 says this:

Bhikkhunī nāma
ubhatosaṅghe upasampannā.

and this:

Ekatoupasampannāya dhovāpeti, āpatti dukkaṭassa.

Which implies that an ekatoupasampanna is not a bhikkhuni, otherwise it would be a pacittiya, not a dukkata.

Would you mind posting the quotes you’re refering to?

This is something that’s discussed again and again in the modern sangha, and if indeed there are passages that confirm that an ekatoupasampanna is a bhikkhuni, I’d be very interested to see them. (I think that’d be great, but unfortunately, most passages I’m familiar with disagree.)

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I found an older video on Ven Dhammananda’s YT channel where she speaks about this at more length. I made a transcript of the relevant part (it is preceded by the Venerable explaining to some visitors how bhikkhuni ordination came to be). I think this makes this latest address by the Venerable more clear.

I don’t know Pali, so please excuse any misspellings. Starts around 19:57.

"Another confusion that I need to make very clear: the monks and many Thai people would be confused saying that for ordination, you need two Sanghas: you need Bhikkhuni Sangha and you need Bhikkhu Sangha. Is it true? They are quoting from Garudhamma No. 6. Garudhamma No. 6 says a bhikkhuni must seek both Sanghas to give ordination to her student. The bhikkhuni herself is ordained, but the bhikkhuni teacher must seek for both Sanghas to give ordination.

Why these both Sanghas? What do they do? Again, we have to refer to the texts. Ordination is always done by the Bhikkhu Sangha, from the Buddha’s time, as the Buddha allowed. Always done by Bhikkhu Sangha only. But there was one particular case of a person who asked for ordination, a lady, she feels shy to answer questions that were about her private parts: whether she always menstruates or whether she has both genders – very personal questions. And she had to answer among all these monks. Imagine Indian culture at that time – women never speak in front of men to begin with. But that time she had to answer the private questions in front of the monks, so she felt shy, and she just kept quiet.

But as she kept quiet, the ordination could not be proceeded. So, the monks reported to the Buddha, “What to do in this case, how do we continue with the ordination?” So, the Buddha said, “Oh, because she felt shy among you, bhikkhus, so allow the bhikkhunis to ask questions!” So that was the start of getting bhikkhunis involved. Not giving ordination – involved to purify the candidates. Purify what? Purify these 24 points that might be of danger to her ordination. In Pali, it is called “antarāyikā dhamma [?]” – 24. For the monks, there are 13, but for the women there are 24. So, she answered, the candidate answered these Dangerous Points to the bhikkhunis, thus considered she was purified now.

After the candidate is purified, now the candidate is being sent by the Bhikkhuni Sangha to the Bhikkhu Sangha for ordination. The full ordination is called “Upasampadā”. Upasampadā is done by the Bhikkhu Sangha. This is how it is done. Now, you understand each step.

Now, the question is: If a candidate… There are no bhikkhunis in this country – they always say that you have to be ordained by both Sanghas, and “you have to have bhikkhunis, otherwise we cannot give ordination.” And that has been excuse in this country for 700 years for not giving ordination to women. Now, this candidate – she is brave, she is bold, she can answer all the antarāyikā dhamma to the Bhikkhu Sangha. Can she be ordained? Of course, logically, she should be ordained without Bhikkhuni Sangha. But they always give this as an excuse, that because there are no more bhikkhunis, so therefore ordination cannot be done.

If we study the texts very closely, with respect to the Buddha, with respect to the Buddha’s intention, quoting from the Maha Parinirvana Sutra that it was the Buddha’s intention to have the fourfold Buddhist communities – then we will understand our role, our duty, our responsibility to fill in the gap which is missing in this country. Which gap? The bhikkhuni gap – you know, the bhikkhu, bhikkhuni, upasaka, lay men, and lay women."

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Ahh okay, she wants to establish the fact that bhikkhunis can be ordained by bhikkhus only.

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Yeah, it does seem to want to establish them as second-class nuns, huh?

But still, the fact that a sikkhamānāya and a sāmaṇeriyā are called out as non-offenses entirely for this rule makes it clear that the ekatoupasampannā is a different status than a novice, proving that the saṅghakamma had some effect and was thus not merely a “rehearsal.”

And the fact that the rule carves out novice nuns as “non offenses” makes it seem to me like ekatoupasampannās are closer in status to Bhikkunis than not. A second-class citizen is still a citizen! :sweat_smile:

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Or that the early ordinations by Tiawanese Bhīkkhunīs and Sri Lankan bhikkhus was legit because the bhikkhuni part was only a rehearsal. :person_shrugging:

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The Bhikkhunī Vibhaṅga Ṭīka ( ¶ 2) defines Bhikkhunīs as being of two types: the Buddha-ordained and the Sangha-ordained. For the Buddha-ordained, Mahāpajāpatigotamī is given as an example. For the Sangha-ordained, there are two subtypes:

saṅghato laddhūpasampadā . Tāpi ekatoupasampannā ubhatoupasampannāti duvidhā.

:smiley:

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Bhante Sujato Yes! That rings right in our culture and times. Perhaps in India at that time and because the Buddha was male and maybe more monks around first, yet is there any room to equalize things and have the bhikkhunis stand alone and be perceived as independent and equal in potential to bhikkhus?

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Is there any scope for the rules to be “reinterpreted” to free bhikkunis and allow full autonomy? Anything less will clash with progressive values.

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Not really. There’s nothing wrong with finding a new religious order and coming up with your own monastic rules per se but at that point you should call yourself something else (see for example, Zen Priests rather thank Monks/Nuns), otherwise it’s rather disingenuous.

Part of what makes something a tradition is following certain rules that’s passed down traditionally. Again, gender doesn’t matter a whole lot for Zen Priests for example. But while they still claim a lineage, they’re clear that they follow Buddha’s instructions on doing away with lesser training rules as they interpret it. Theravadin tradition keeps all Vinaya rules intact, for better or for worse.

Personally, I’m glad that there are people who try to be traditionalists, and people who are unafraid to experiment and see where the wind takes them. It enrichens the community and the practice, as long as we’re clear about our definitions and our objectives. :slight_smile:

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Progressive values and monasticism is a bit far from this discussion’s purpose. This was an interesting discussion from a few years ago, about incorporating progressive values.

What might be the connecting factor is that bhikkhus with progressive values are more likely to support the bhikkhuni sangha. It is also part of both vinayas to form meaningful relationships between the bhikkhu and bhikkhuni sanghas.

As the other monastics explained above, a bhikkhuni is still a bhikkhuni in relation to other bhikkhunis once they have performed the bhikkhuni sanghakamma. The bhikkhu confirmation is just an acceptance by the bhikkhu sangha.

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Ah! That’s interesting! It does make sense of why a “one-side-ordained” nun would be a lesser offense in the aforementioned Bhikkhu rule. I like that take! :blush:

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