SuttaCentral

Bi Pm / Vb translation & parallels issues


#21

Yes, this is one of the many absurd cases of copyright. This was one of the main issues that sunk google books; there’s millions of books like this, of little interest to anyone but a very few, with no commercial prospects and no clear owner of copyright, yet all are covered by copyright laws.

I would say simply go ahead and use it as you see fit, especially if you want to base your translations on it. I seriously doubt that anyone is going to make a copyright issue of it.


#22

Voila, here is the first try. You can switch on Textual Information to see all the extras.
I will send you the file (or you can pull it from Github). You can probably see how I did it and then you can make any additions to it when you go along. Note that all rules are in 1 file so you have to update the metadata as you go along accordingly.

If you have any questions, please let me know.
Might also be good to have a link to the actual Waldschmidt doc in the metadata.


#23

Very cool. Thanks for doing this! :purple_heart:

Just a few comments:
Bhante suggested to include the png files that I put in the folder together with the txt file.

I don’t know how exactly it works but assume that you have some way to sort it out.

The actual doc is just on google books, but not freely available. [quote=“Vimala, post:22, topic:5838”]
You can probably see how I did it and then you can make any additions to it when you go along. Note that all rules are in 1 file so you have to update the metadata as you go along accordingly.
[/quote]

I noticed that you incorporated the rules into the pre-existing skt sarv bi pm. But this is another fragment and needs a new structure. It is complete as it is and no more rules will be added.
In the Waldschmidt book, we have 2 skt sarv bi pms, one vb, and one fragment with sikkhamana rules. The second Pm, and the Vb are the ones that should fit with what we have on SC already.


#24

Yes, that is great, thanks so much to both of you.

Re the images, unless Vimala wants to do this now, Id suggest just keeping them on file and adding this function later.


#25

I’ve created a folder and put them in there with the following links:
https://suttacentral.net/img/waldschmidt/Pb1-2.png , etc/

You can use those links in the metadata somewhere.

If it is on Google Books, it is on the internet and we can also put a link to that book in our metadata. Of course the danger with external links is always that they can change or disappear.

It is just a matter of renaming the file and changing it’s ID. Right now we only have one so this is fine. When we have more of them we can change the structure. For instance for the bhikkhu patthimoka it says (Turfan 11) or (Finot) behind it.

So let me know exactly what there is in each, what rules there are and what the name of the specific text would be and I can add it to the menu. You will then also need to add them with the correct IDs to the parallels.


#26

Bhante @Sujato, could you please have a look at where the boundaries between the rules in these fragments are? Waldschmidt is not clear about this.

This fragment contains vibhanga material about the end of sarv pc116 and parts of sarv pc117. The text is supposed to say
(116) … admits into the order. As soon as she admits, she commits a pacittiya.
(117) The Buddha was dwelling at Savatthi. At that time, the nun Sthulananda without having performed an upastapanakarma admitted a 20 year old girl into the Sangha.
My guess is that 117 begins at the second line of the recto (German Vorderseite). (?)


These contain Vibhanga of Sarv pc 164 and 165:
(164) The Buddha was dwelling at Rajagaha. At that time, the nuns who belonged to Devadatta’s party were putting on perfum, mud perfum, and stuff made from sesame. … If a nun puts on perfum etc. she commits a pacittiya.
(165) Buddha at Rajagaha. Nuns didn’t do the above, but they asked Sikkhamanas, Samaneris and laywomen to do it. … If they do it, pacittiya.
Is the boundary on the recto, line 5?

Thanks! :anjal:


#27

Yes, it’s not easy. Obviously Waldschmidt is padding out the translation for clarity.

This is correct, I think.

No, I think it is the verso, line 6: tan na svayam eva gandhair = “they didn’t [apply] perfume themselves …”


#28

Yay! :grinning:

You probably mean the recto line 6. (Two German words you’ll never need again: Vorderseite=recto, Rückseite=verso - just to confuse English speakers :wink:)
So I was pretty close… :sweat_smile:


#29

Of course, how silly of me!


#30

A new topic: The Chinese lookup tool.

I came across a few words that are not recognized by the tool, most recently 偷蘭難陀 tou lan nan tuo, which clearly means Thullananda. So I’m wondering if it would be useful to collect these words during the translation project so that the lookup tool can be updated. If yes, what format should I use to compile them (keeping in mind that Chinese dictionaries have three categories per entry: characters, pinyin, translation)?

As for the translation category, if it is a proper name, such as tou lan nan tuo, should we use the equivalent in Pali, Sanskrit, both, or depending on context whichever is the most likely original, i. e. in the case above Thullananda, not Sthulananda? (That will sometimes be hard to determine, and even if it was a Prakrit it might not have been exactly like the Pali.)

This is also a relevant question for my entire translation project, not just for the dictionary entry.


#31

Our data are in a javascript array format so each entry looks like:

“三玄三要”:[‘sānxuán sānyào’,‘three profundities and three essentials’],


#32

The tool is based ultimately on the data provided by Charles Muller, which has been maintained as a expert-contributed project for over twenty years—possibly the longest running such project on the web.

The best thing to do is to report any such findings to him, so he can add it to the main data. He issues updates each month, and has kindly allowed SC to use the abbreviated version of the dictionary.

I’m not sure exactly how the proper names are handled. There’s a list of names here:

http://www.buddhism-dict.net/ddb/indexes/person-ind.html

But I’m not sure how it’s integrated with the main dictionary. Anyway, 偷蘭難陀 is not listed as a rendering of Sthulananda, so it should be added.


#33

In Skt Lo Bi Vb Ss 17, the Origin Story, Ruling, and Definitions are marked incorrectly.
Paragraph SC2 should be the ruling, SC3 should be included in the defininitions.

I checked this in Nolot’s French translation as well, just to make sure, and it confirms that it should be changed.


#34

Thanks, I’ve made the corrections. They should show up on the live site soon. May I ask you to check them and see whether it’s now correct, it is a little tricky.


#35

Sorry, Bhante, I was on retreat and didn’t see your message until now.
I looked at the file on github and it seems fine now but for some reason it doesn’t show up on SC. There it’s still the old version.


#36

Well, I’ve forgotten how to restart the server, so it’ll wait till Ayya Vimala is off retreat!


#37

Thanks, Ayya @Vimala!
Bhante @Sujato, it seems OK now.


#38

In Skt Lo Bi Vb Pj8, the Ruling and Definitions are marked incorrectly.

Everything that is now included in the ruling should be moved to definitions, i. e. this :

yā puna bhikṣuṇīti upasampannā | jānantīti svayam vā jāneya parato vā śruṇeya ākāravantena darśanena ākāravantena śravaṇena | samagreṇa saṁgheneti avyagreṇa | dharma-vinayato āpattīya adarśanena āpattīya apratikarmeṇa trayāṇāṁ dṛṣṭi-gatānām apratiniḥsargeṇa | utkṣiptan ti asaṁbhogam kṛtaṁ |

The rule itself is elided and only spelled out in full at the very end of Pj8.


#39

Thanks so much, well spotted!

I have made the corrections to the file. @vimala, could you please git this when you get the chance.

san-lo-bi-vb-pj8.zip (3.8 KB)


#40

Uploaded to nextdata only (not the old site).