Done!
3 Likes
DN16:3.9.2: “appossukko tvaṁ, pāpima, hohi, na ciraṁ tathāgatassa parinibbānaṁ bhavissati.
“Relax, Wicked One. The full extinguishment of the Realized One will be soon.
DN16:3.9.3: Ito tiṇṇaṁ māsānaṁ accayena tathāgato parinibbāyissatī”ti.
Three months from now the Realized One will finally be extinguished.”
In the first phrase, we have “full extinguishment”, in the second we have “final”. Again in similar contexts here and elsewhere.
2 Likes
“will be fully extinguished”
2 Likes
AN5.170:4.5: Yathā bhūtassa anantarā āsavānaṁ khayo hoti, idaṁ bhavānaṁ aggan”ti.
The state of existence in which the defilements end in the present life is the best form of existence.”
In this sutta, “state of existence” has been generally changed to “form of existence”. In this last sentence, there’s still a “state” left, and I am not sure if this is by oversight or deliberately, because here it doesn’t render bhava, but bhūta.
AN5.184:1.1: “Pañcime, bhikkhave, sosānikā.
“Mendicants,these five dwell in a charnel ground.
Add space after comma.
The manāpakāyika gods are sometimes translated “lovable”, sometimes “agreeable” (actually, only in the title of AN8.46).
May I still ask a question: I see that in many cases, “extinguish” has been replaced by “quench”, but not in all. Both terms render nibbāti or nibbāyati. Where do you see the difference between them?
The title of AN6.87 is “Apparent the Present Life”—should be “Apparent in the Present Life”.
1 Like
No, that’s an oversight, we can see from the preceding statements that the first part of the sentence is meant to exactly echo the second part, i.e. bhūta is merely a grammatical variation of bhava.
However, on review, use “state of existence” here, as I have used it more commonly in similar contexts elsewhere. Similarly change the uses in Snp 3.5 and Snp 4.5.
I think we can use agreeable in all instances of manāpa, including the gods.
I’m using “extinguish” for nibbāna and “quench” for nibbuta. I may well have missed some instances, but that’s the aim.
In Pali, although from different roots, these have the same meaning, and may serve as nominal and verbal forms in the same expression (eg. parinibbuto so bhagavā parinibbānāya dhammaṁ deseti). So they are usually translated with the same term (or left untranslated). Having played around with different forms for a while, however, I think using the two terms in English works quite well, as “quench” softens the rather harsh and Latinate “extinguish”, and helps preserve the lexical variety of the original.
Thanks, I’ve adopted your other suggestions.
2 Likes
Thanks a lot for the explanation, that makes sense! (Although it is difficult in German to find alternatives other than perhaps the choice between “erlöschen” and “verlöschen”.)
In DN16 I see many cases of “quench” for Pali terms like parinibbāyeyyaṁ, parinibbāyissati, parinibbāyissāmi, parinibbāyi, parinibbāyatu, etc. The same in Ud6.1, SN51.10, AN8.70, AN4.179, SN35.119, SN35.118, SN35.131, SN35.124, SN35.125, SN35.126, SN35.128, SN47.9, DN17, SN6.15, SN47.13, SN15.20, MN60, Thag16.9, MN145, Thag2.21. Not sure which root nibbāpeti/nibbāpetva belongs to, which we find for example in Iti93.
This list is most likely not comprehensive. And if I didn’t distinguish the roots correctly, please forgive me.
1 Like
I have no Pali, but had mused idly on that translation difference. Thanks for anticipating!
1 Like
AN5.31:5.5: Yehi kho pana sabrahmacārīhi saddhiṁ viharati tyassa manāpeneva bahulaṁ kāyakammena samudācaranti appaṁ amanāpena, manāpeneva bahulaṁ vacīkammena samudācaranti appaṁ amanāpena, manāpeneva bahulaṁ manokammena samudācaranti appaṁ amanāpena, manāpaṁyeva bahulaṁ upahāraṁ upaharanti appaṁ amanāpaṁ.
When living with other spiritual practitioners, they usually treat them agreeably by way of body, speech, and mind, rarely disagreeably.
The translation as it stands here is, as I just notice, ambiguous. It can mean
- when living with other spiritual practitioners, that person usually treats the companions agreeably by way of body, speech, and mind, rarely disagreeably;
- when living with other spiritual practitioners, the companions usually treat that person agreeably by way of body, speech, and mind, rarely disagreeably.
Until now I have always understood it to be the first of these options, but now I think it is probably the second: the Pali has samudācaranti, i.e. plural, so the companions treat the person in this way and not the other way around, which would be singular.
It would perhaps be good to make the meaning more explicit. There are a few more suttas that have the same phrase.
Oh! And I notice still another thing!
manāpaṁyeva bahulaṁ upahāraṁ upaharanti appaṁ amanāpaṁ
This bit has not been translated at all here. Elsewhere it is translated
And they usually present them with agreeable things, rarely with disagreeable ones.
which has the same ambiguity as the first phrase; and the verb is again plural.
1 Like
Uggh, sorry, this is another instance of the Bilara search index being outdated. All these display “extinguish” in my search results and “quench” in the text. I’ll try to fix them.
2 Likes
Wow, to that degree indeed!
Since I don’t use Bilara search I don’t come across this problem. However I often see outdated TM suggestions, and mostly those are shown at the top, while the valid ones only come further down. So it’s easy to re-introduce things you’ve edited out throughout.
AN7.69:16.9: Itiha tena khaṇena tena muhuttena yāva brahmalokā saddo abbhuggacchati,
And so at that moment, that second, that hour, the cry soars up to the Brahmā realm.
The Pali doesn’t have layena here, so perhaps leave the “second” out.
AN8.61:1.1: “Aṭṭhime, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṁvijjamānā lokasmiṁ.
“Mendicants, these eight are found in the world.
It seems the “people” have been lost here.
SN21.1:2.9: Tassa mayhaṁ, āvuso, iminā vihārena viharato vitakkasahagatā saññā manasikārā samudācaranti.
While I was in that meditation, perceptions accompanied by placing the mind beset me due to loss of focus.
All other instances of saññā manasikārā (spelled in one word; here it’s two separate words) have been translated “perception and focus”.
1 Like
When living with other spiritual practitioners, they usually find themselves treated agreeably by them by way of body, speech, and mind, and rarely disagreeably. And they are usually presented with agreeable things by them, rarely with disagreeable ones.
Yes, it’s frustrating!
At one point I favored this translation, largely because this phrase is only used in a negative sense in the suttas. But in late canonical Pali we find positive uses as well (ps1.1:171.5, pe8:3.3), so it seems I was wrong. use “perception and focus” throughout.
2 Likes
It looks like a solution is not immediately at hand. I’m not sure exactly how your setup works, and I’d rather not use it locally myself, as I want to be a user of Bilara so I know what it’s like for others.
But I wonder whether you can generate a list of possible instances of this bug? Something like:
- search for segments that contain the strings
quench+parinibbā. And maybe alsoquench+nibbā.
And then a list of results with segment numbers?
If it’s a hassle, don’t worry, I’ll figure it out somehow.
2 Likes
I’ve been through this list and fixed all the cases I have spotted. Still hunting for more!
2 Likes
Hmm … scv-bilara doesn’t search for terms in two different languages. What I usually do is searching for quench, then within the results search for the string nibbā, which is then highlighted, so it’s easy to identify them.
Like this:
(This is a search for bilingual only, so no German, in order to include also texts that I haven’t translated yet. Therefore you see the English duplicated, as actual translation language and as reference language.)
The “164” at the top of the screenshot means there are 164 documents that contain the word “quench” in English. Some of them, as DN16, have many segments with the term, all of which are shown in the results.
It’s not easy to copy all the results here for you. I’d have to go through them all screen length-wise, which is just … A LOT. It will take me an hour, or even several hours. It would probably be easier if you’d just install scv-bilara on your own machine: GitHub - sc-voice/scv-bilara: SuttaCentral Voice adapter for Bilara
At the very least, here is a list with all the documents that have “quench”:
pattern : "quench" grep:\bquench
source : /home/sabbamitta/dev/scv-bilara/local/bilara-data@unpublished
languages : translation:en search:en minLang:2
output : human color:201 elapsed:undefineds maxDoc:500
found : segs:403 by:phrase mlDocs:164 docs:164 an3.35,an3.36,an3.55,an3.57,an3.66,an4.1,an4.118,an4.169,an4.179,an4.198,an5.35,an5.38,an5.179,an5.201,an5.207,an6.2
3,an6.40,an6.43,an6.62,an7.59,an7.64,an7.66,an8.70,an8.85,an9.33,an10.29,an10.117,an10.118,an10.169,an10.170,cp23,dhp60-75,dhp76-89,dhp116-128,dhp179-196,dhp383-423,dn
1,dn10,dn14,dn16,dn17,dn21,dn23,dn24,dn25,dn32,dn33,iti52,iti54,iti56,iti92,kp6,mn8,mn26,mn35,mn48,mn51,mn60,mn72,mn84,mn85,mn94,mn98,mn102,mn108,mn116,mn123,mn124,mn1
30,mn142,mn145,sn1.1,sn1.17,sn1.35,sn2.18,sn4.23,sn6.15,sn8.2,sn8.4,sn10.8,sn11.20,sn12.66,sn15.20,sn21.5,sn22.22,sn22.43,sn22.87,sn35.83,sn35.88,sn35.118,sn35.119,sn3
5.124,sn35.125,sn35.126,sn35.128,sn35.131,sn35.136,sn35.240,sn36.1,sn45.34,sn46.17,sn47.9,sn47.13,sn47.14,sn47.22,sn47.25,sn51.10,snp1.2,snp2.1,snp2.12,snp2.13,snp3.4,
snp3.8,snp3.9,snp3.11,snp3.12,snp4.3,snp4.14,snp4.15,snp5.3,snp5.9,snp5.11,thag1.5,thag1.7,thag1.8,thag1.32,thag1.79,thag1.96,thag1.100,thag2.21,thag4.8,thag5.10,thag5
.11,thag6.8,thag10.5,thag10.6,thag14.1,thag14.2,thag15.2,thag16.9,thag16.10,thag17.2,thag17.3,thag18.1,thag20.1,thag21.1,thig1.15,thig1.16,thig1.18,thig2.8,thig3.5,thi
g4.1,thig5.2,thig5.4,thig5.7,thig5.8,thig5.10,thig6.1,ud1.10,ud3.6,ud6.1,ud8.5,ud8.9,ud8.10
trilingual: doc:en/sujato ref:en/sujato
2 Likes
Ok thanks! Currently I’m using bilara i/o to output the texts as w hole in tsv then I can use regex on two languages simultaneously. Messy, but effective.
FYI, you can do something like this with bilara i/o:
./sheet_export.py kn kn.tsv --include root,translation+sujato
Then you get a TSV file with three columns: segment, root, sujato translation. Then it’s easy to run a regex using Sublime or whatever. Anyway, I think I have them all now.
2 Likes
Good work!
Refreshing after this change, the number of “quench” documents is now reduced to 148. I still see nibbā in DN16 in the following segments: 5.8.6, 5.8.9, 6.10.1, 6.10.2, 6.10.9, 6.10.14, 6.10.23.
Apart from that it’s 4 times in SN6.15, twice in MN8, once in AN4.118, once in AN5.35 and also in AN5.38, once in Thag5.10, once in AN10.29, once in MN35, once in DN25, and that seems to be it!
1 Like
I’ve got 297 “quench” across 146 files.
2 Likes
DN15:22.6: Ettāvatā adhivacanapatho, ettāvatā niruttipatho, ettāvatā paññattipatho, ettāvatā paññāvacaraṁ, ettāvatā vaṭṭaṁ vattati itthattaṁ paññāpanāya yadidaṁ nāmarūpaṁ saha viññāṇena aññamaññapaccayatā pavattati.
This is how far the scope of labeling, terminology, and description extends; how far the sphere of wisdom extends; how far the cycle of rebirths proceeds so that this place may be be found; namely, name and form together with consciousness.
“… so that this place may be found”; only one be.
AN5.104:3.3: Yehi kho pana bhikkhūhi saddhiṁ viharāmi, te maṁ manāpeneva bahulaṁ kāyakammena samudācaranti, appaṁ amanāpena; manāpeneva bahulaṁ vacīkammena samudācaranti, appaṁ amanāpena; manāpeneva bahulaṁ manokammena samudācaranti, appaṁ amanāpena;
When living with other spiritual practitioners, I usually treat them agreeably.
It’s not “spiritual practitioners” here, but “monks”. And “they treat me agreeably”. The same at AN4.87:6.3.
DN32:7.49: Yato meghā pavassanti;
whence the clouds rain forth,
Remove double space between “rain” and “forth”.
In DN5:17.6 there are still “aristocrat vassals” instead of the new version “aristocrats and vassals”. In segment 17.9, the aristocrats and vassals are mentioned in the English translation, but here the Pali has only the other groups, not khattiyā ānuyantā.
iti99:5.3: Evaṁ kho ahaṁ, bhikkhave, dhammena tevijjaṁ brāhmaṇaṁ paññāpemi, nāññaṁ lapitalāpanamattenā”ti.
That’s how I define a brahmin in terms of the teaching as one who is master of the three knowledges, not the other who merely repeats what they are told. ”
Remove space between period and closing quote mark.
Thag20.1:11.4: aggikhandhaṁva pakkhimā”.
you’ll end up like a moth in a mas of ffire.”
“Mass (double “s”) of fire (only one “f”)”.
Thag20.1:42.1 has an opening quote mark, but the preceding segment has no closing quote mark.
Thag16.2:2.3 has “may a person what they need to do for themselves”. Should probably be “may a person do what they need to do for themselves”.
Natthi dāni punabbhavo is sometimes translated “now there are no more future lives”, sometimes “now there’ll be no more future lives”. Perhaps that’s also a Bilara search issue?
Thag16.9:18.1: Yassa muhuttena sahassadhā,
“That mendicant, knowing in an hour the galaxy,
Thag16.9:18.2: Loko saṁvidito sabrahmakappo;
together with the age of Brahmā;
Thag16.9:18.3: Vasī iddhiguṇe cutūpapāte,
master of psychic properties, and passing away and rebirth,
Thag16.9:18.4: Kāle passati devatā sa bhikkhu.
sees the gods at that time.”
Compare with
Thag20.1:42.1: Yassa muhuttena sahassadhā loko,
“The mendicant by whom the galaxy
Thag20.1:42.2: Saṁvidito sabrahmakappo vasi;
with the age of Brahmā are known in an hour—
Thag20.1:42.3: Iddhiguṇe cutupapāte kāle,
that master of psychic ability sees the gods
Thag20.1:42.4: Passati devatā sa bhikkhu”.
at the time they pass away and are reborn.”
The only difference in the Pali is that the word kāle has been moved to the next line in Thag16.9 (as have been the last words of the other lines as well).
Compare the pattern
MN122:22.5: Ayaṁ vuccatānanda, upaddavo ācariyo.
This is said to the tutor’s peril.
with the pattern
MN122:23.6: Ayaṁ vuccatānanda, upaddavo antevāsī.
This student is said to be imperiled by the student’s peril.
and again
MN122:24.10: Ayaṁ vuccatānanda, upaddavo brahmacārī.
This spiritual practitioner is said to be imperiled by the spiritual practitioner’s peril.
And, as I notice only now, it should be “this is said to be the tutor’s peril”.
Satthaṁ āhareti is sometimes translated “slit one’s wrists”, and on other occasions it has recently become “take one’s life”. Often both forms occur in the same sutta, like for example in MN144. So I am wondering if this is deliberate?
1 Like
In SN 55.42 the sentence “It’s not easy measure how…” is missing a “to”.
2 Likes
SN 55.42:5.2 (exact segment) 
.
4 Likes