Disclaimer : i am not anti theravada , mahayana , vajrayana , anyone , or any traditions . What i am going to say are merely my own understanding and coincides with the few whom i know , anyone may disagrees .
I hope this is aligning with kalama sutta spirits and not supporting blind faith . Buddha emphasized on investigating to the bottom . At least this is my line of thinking at this moment . After thinking i hope to explain this so that to clear up any confusion i caused if any on this topic i brought up .
My concern is , if my assertion is right that would deny the opportunity of female in getting dual ordination which is not my intention at all .
I guess this boils down to core question about technicality involves of the validity of the ordination .
However anyone may disagrees .
Supposition question :
- If somehow the dharmaguptaka monks/nuns disqualified themselves as a bhikkhu/ni , naturally , anyone that went/go to participate in the ordination would not receive a valid bhikkhu/ni precepts .
- Would receiving bhikkhu/ni ordination from those unqualified monks/nuns (supposing) , enable receiver in the ordination be regarded as qualified bhikkhu/ni ?
- Would anyone qualified as a bhikkhu/ni as long as they undertake to observe the bhikkhu/ni precepts eventhough they didnt receive it validly ?
Perhaps the theravadins here could agree on one thing , which is , it is obvious that the buddha didnt laid down the bodhisattva vows . Of course anyone may disagrees . It is not my intention to slander Mahayana .
《《Thereafter, I descended from the Brahma King’s palace to Jambudvipa, the Human World. I have preached the Diamond Illuminated Jeweled Precepts (the Bodhisattva precepts) from beneath the Bodhi-tree for the sake of all sentient beings on earth, however dull and ignorant they may be. 》》
《《This precept-light(bodhisattva vows or moral codes) is precisely the original source of all Buddhas and all members of this Great Assembly. Therefore all you disciples of the Buddha should receive and observe, read, recite and study these precepts with utmost attention.》》
Ps .
The questions then would be the implication lies behind of the Brahma net (sila) sutra as used by those to perform ordination . I suppose for many this is quite an assertion . Before one could assert that the bodhisattva vows would disqualified the earlier bhikkhu/ni ordination , one has to examine the sutra to get a better understanding .
And the Reading of the sutra somehow depends on individual understanding of it . So anyone interested in finding out can determine for themself , whether if anyone taken up the bodhisattva vows naturally would implied not to follow and take up the savaka & pacceka path with its dhammavinaya , this is to be decided upon by each individual . Again anyone may disagrees here . But it can be seen throughout the contents of the sutra although the sutra indicate it indirectly .
The forming or assembling of whole Mahayana moral codes appears to get align and legitimise the Mahayana sutras with theravada existing sets of moral codes and suttas .
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《《6. Sixth Major Precept
On Broadcasting the Faults of the Assembly
(As a Buddha’s disciple, whenever he hears evil persons, externalists or followers of the Two Vehicles speak of practices contrary to the Dharma or contrary to the precepts within the Buddhist community, he should instruct them with a compassionate mind and lead them to develop wholesome faith in the Mahayana.)》》
Ps .
So here it says the 2 vehicles are contrary to the bodhisattva precepts , therefore , surely a Mahayanist with a bodhisattva vows intact do not want to take up the theravada dhamma and precepts (if citing “hinayana” then it is according to the sutra term) or do they ?
So naturally your question that follow is how then all those taken up bodhisattva vows still insist to observe the bhikkhu/ni precepts ?
What is the logics behind this if a bodhisattva already Vows Not to follow the savaka path , which necessarily includes its dhamma vinaya ? No ?
Imo that is because the Mahayanist cannot totally cut away from the existing Monastics or Sangha order .
If they still wants to remain as a buddhist and continue to live under buddhism umbrella with all the available convenients in obtaining all kind of requisites for survival .
And surely they regarded themselves as a genuine buddhist since they were /are of a buddhist mentality
and not otherwise although this identification has its flaws .
Of course in the sutra contents not difficult to find many conflicting and contradiction between the Mahayana concepts themselves and in contrast to theravada / savaka teachings .
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Here’s a quote example from the sutra .
《《The Buddha Reciting the
Bodhisattva Precepts
At that time, when Shakyamuni Buddha first attained Supreme Enlightenment under the Bodhi tree, he explained the Bodhisattva precepts. The Buddha taught filial piety toward one’s parents, (16) Elder Masters and the Triple Jewel. Filial piety and obedience, he said, are the Ultimate Path [to Buddhahood]. (17) Filial piety is called the precepts – and it means restraint and cessation . 》》
Ps .
Surely , filial piety is not the precepts and certainly not cessation .
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《《Conclusion: The Ten Major Precepts
As a disciple of the Buddha, you should study these ten Parajika (major) precepts and not break any one of them in even the slightest way – much less break all of them! Anyone guilty of doing so cannot develop the Bodhi Mind in his current life and will lose whatever high position he may have attained, be it that of an emperor, Wheel-Turning King, Bhiksu, Bhiksunis .》》
《《VI. The Forty-eight Secondary Precepts
8. On Turning Away from the Mahayana
If a disciple of the Buddha disavows the eternal Mahayana sutras and moral codes, declaring that they were not actually taught by the Buddha, and instead follows and observes those of the Two Vehicles and deluded externalists, he commits a secondary offense.》》
Ps .
This part is saying to follow Mahayana sutras and moral codes , and Not to Follow 2 vehicles sutta n moral codes . A Genuine Mahayanist whom Vows as a bodhisattva would not want to follow the theravada ( i avoid citing hinayana term) dhamma vinaya . Does this Technically accounting to the case that would resulted themselves as not receiving bhikkhu/ni precepts in reality ?!
Imo the answer is yes when anyone think as a bodhisattva . Otherwise s/he will acts against and compromise their bodhisattva vows . S/he surely would not do that to become a savaka path practitioner .
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《《15. Teaching Non-Mahayana Dharma
If instead, the disciple, with evil, hateful intentions, perversely teaches them the sutras and moral codes of the Two Vehicle tradition as well as the commentaries of deluded externalists, he thereby commits a secondary offense.》》
Ps .
Again , this is illogical , if a bodhisattva wanted to follow only Mahayana dharma n moral codes and not to take up the other 2 vehicles , where is the need to state that (with hatefull intention , perversely teachings others sutra n moral codes of 2 vehicles ) ?
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《《18. On Serving as an Inadequate Master
If instead, the disciple of the Buddha fails to understand even a sentence or a verse of the moral code or the causes and conditions related to the precepts, but pretends to understand them, he is deceiving both himself and others. A disciple, who understands nothing of the Dharma, yet acts as a teacher transmitting the precepts, commits a secondary offense.》》
Ps .
To take this as a simile , equating that to those pioneers ( including the author/s of the sutra ) whom taken up the bodhisattva vows were in confusion , lacking clarity and those masters and preceptors following in this line could be Blinded by faith and so do the receivers in the ordinations over period of thousands of years .
《《24. Failure to Practice Mahayana Teachings
If a disciple of the Buddha fails to study Mahayana sutras and moral codes assiduously and cultivate correct views, correct nature and the correct Dharma Body, it is like abandoning the Seven Precious Jewels for [mere stones]: worldly texts and the Two-Vehicle or externalist commentaries. 》》
Ps .
Would anyone trade your gold for stone ? As a bodhisattva s/he should not . Naturally bodhisattva moral codes of 10 major and 48 secondary are to follow and observe instead of the theravada moral codes . Can a person observes both set of conflicting moral codes together at the same time ? Individually answer may vary .
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《《 34. Temporary Abandoning of the Bodhi Mind
If a Bodhisattva has but a single thought in the direction of the Two Vehicles or externalist teachings, he commits a secondary offense.
Ps .
As a bodhisattva s/he would not have a second thought on 2 vehicles with its dhamma n moral codes .
To sum up probably my analysis might have some flaws , but the concern is to focus on the validity of the ordination . If those involve in executing the ordination are in question of their own validity what more to the participants in the ordination ?!
Finally this may not answer correctly to all matters in question but why not let the expertise here or otherwise to explore further if there is a need . After all I am just a learner . Good day .
