SuttaCentral

Brain Dead mother giving birth to a child


#1

Almost 3 months after being brain dead a mother gives birth to a child, are there 2 minds alive here one with child and one with mother still there, wonder how the complex process of keeping fetus alive can be accomplished by keeping someone on ventilator?

Discussion about this article which deserves a deeper understanding


#2

I’m shifting this to the Watercooler section, sumants, as it isn’t about EBTs.


#3

Thank you for shifting though I disagree that it’s not about EBT, the root of this one has got something to with dependent origination and only those who understand that very well correlate it


#4

The 27-year-old mother was declared brain-dead in early June after suffering a brain hemorrhage a few weeks into her pregnancy.

This is about vegitative state, even though scientists and psycologists believe brain deads are really dead people, according to buddhism a damage to the brain has no difference from a damage to a limb since the consciousness is not brain centered or brain originated.

According to buddhism there are three things to to be considered before declaring death.

Concerning this body,
he of vast wisdom has taught
that when three things are given up,
you’ll see this form discarded.

Vitality, warmth, and consciousness:
when they leave the body,
it lies there tossed aside,
food for others, mindless.
Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta SN 22.95

Thus without vitality, warmth and consciousness the body is like a hardwood that is discarded. There is no physical way to detect consciousness or vitality but warmth. As long as warmth is there no matter how it maintained the person (mother) is considered alive.

what is death? The passing away, perishing, disintegration, demise, mortality, death, decease, breaking up of the aggregates, laying to rest of the corpse, and cutting off of the life faculty of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings. This is called death.
Saccavibhaṅga Sutta MN 141
Death is defined covering all kinds of beings such as animals, humans, devas and brahmas. To declare death, the last thought should disappear from the body.

Yes, as you can see it is related to EBT.


#5

Thank you for this elaborate answer, can you detail what vitality is,
consciousness I believe is the concept of knower a mind as long as there is knower there is consciousness, that’s why probably you say it’s difficult to tell in this case
Warmth - can be body survive and be considered alive if it’s kept on ventilator for ever?


#6

What on that occasion is the faculty of vitality?

The persistence of these incorporeal states, their subsistence, going on, their being kept going on, their progress, continuance, preservation, life, life as faculty—this is the faculty of vitality that there then is.
Kāmāvacarakusala
Literally lifespan


#7

OK, sorry. As it stood it seemed like an item of general interest. Which is fine. :slight_smile:

May I suggest that you edit your OP. That way you can add to what you wrote to say that you have a link to a particular text that you want to discuss and share it with us, or ask a question about finding the connection that you want. At the same time you’ll be able to switch it to ‘Discussion’. :pray:


#8

Not forever, but there are cases that people with vegitative stage have survived for years. Warmth is a sign that the person is alive. For an example a monk who is in nirodhasamāpatti can only be separated from a dead body by warmth. What keeps the person alive is kamma. Which is here identified as vitality (jīvitendriya). It is kind of the capacity to be alive. Vitality keeps the succession of thoughts.


#9

Thank you so is it ok to read it as persistence of formless states without body or so called stream of consciousness


#10

Pali version of above text:
Katamaṃ tasmiṃ samaye jīvitindriyaṃ hoti? Yo tesaṃ arūpīnaṃ dhammānaṃ āyu ṭhiti yapanā yāpanā iriyanā vattanā pālanā jīvitaṃ jīvitindriyaṃ—idaṃ tasmiṃ samaye jīvitindriyaṃ hoti.

arūpīnaṃ dhammānaṃ are psychic states, but I am not so sure taking it as formless states is appropriate, nonform or name (Nāma) would be fine.
using the phrase “without body” - this is not correct. It may persistent, with or without a body.
(arūpīnaṃ dhammānaṃ = Nāma)


#11

So , where does consciousness originated ?

The last thought or last consciousness ?


#12

What is the meaning of “consciousness”?