Buddha & Formless Attainments

I’ve seen several times people questioning the validity of Formless Attainments (ayatanas, arupa jhanas) because Buddha mentions being unable to achieve enlightenment with his teachers’ tutelage.

I think a reading consistent with rest of the canon is to understand this matter as the difference between wrong immersion and right immersion.

The part in question is found in MN26:

'This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth in the dimension of nothingness.’ It does not fulfill the requirements of the “noble quest”.
nāyaṁ dhammo nibbidāya na virāgāya na nirodhāya na upasamāya na abhiññāya na sambodhāya na nibbānāya saṁvattati, yāvadeva ākiñcaññāyatanūpapattiyā’ti.

This is not a critic of Formless Attainments; it’s a critique of Alara Kalama’s dhamma.

Suttas make a clear distinction of right and wrong samadhi, differentiated with Right View or Wrong View.

An10.103:

Wrong view gives rise to wrong thought. Wrong thought gives rise to wrong speech. Wrong speech gives rise to wrong action. Wrong action gives rise to wrong livelihood. Wrong livelihood gives rise to wrong effort. Wrong effort gives rise to wrong mindfulness. Wrong mindfulness gives rise to wrong immersion. Wrong immersion gives rise to wrong knowledge. Wrong knowledge gives rise to wrong freedom.

A (perhaps crude) analogy would be to view Ayatanas as a hammer. If you try to use a hammer to carry water, it’ll fail spectacularly. If you use it to nail a wooden plank, it’ll work alright.

Before rushing to talk about conspiracies to see ayatanas as something added by later redactors, it’s wise to see if there is a way to resolve the apparent contradiction with the logic of the suttas.

:lotus::pray:

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Maybe I misunderstand, but would Formless attainments, as a metaphor, like the Brahmaviharas, be at least a supplementary step on the Path towards the right direction? As they pertain to seeing the world in such an Advanced way that one is even reborn in a higher place. And just like the Brahmaviharas, which I remember the Buddha said got Him to become Brahma before, but not yet Enlightened, still be a step in the Right direction? And not Wrong view? Is all but the Path to Enlightenment a Wrong view in your mind? Because in later texts it says that even Nibbana is not a true extinction, and Anuttara-Samyak-Sambodhi, Supreme Perfect Enlightenment, is higher and much more complete than the Awakening of an Arhat that many in the Theravada yet still see as the final word.

Indeed. Because we lack a modern Buddhist apologetics, it’s easy to feed these theories of redactor modification. We, of course, also lack any historical evidence of what the redactors did. So the void is filled with theories.

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I don’t think they were added later. What the Buddha lacked before when using them was wisdom.

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The formless attainments are just variations of the 4th Jhana.

Almost everyone claims a conspiracy at some point - Theravada claims Mahayana is a conspiracy, EBT thinks Theravada is a conspiracy, further people think all sorts of theories.

I find all historical analysis interesting, but ultimately futile - because I actually don’t have faith in any of these things. For all I know, historical Buddha wasn’t enlightened, and later redactors were. I don’t know. I am only interested to view texts if they satisfy a self-consistent logic that I can put to test.

MN85 repeats the trope I quoted above. Buddha denies the usefulness of his teachers’ dhamma; he says grueling work of ascetic practices are not the way to enlightenment, but the delight of first jhana is. Again, feel free to quote whatever part you think actually supports your claim. Where does it say practising ayatanas is a fool’s errand?

30.1Then it occurred to me, 30.2‘Whatever ascetics and brahmins have experienced painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings due to overexertion—whether in the past, future, or present—this is as far as it goes, no-one has done more than this. 30.330.430.5But I have not achieved any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones by this severe, gruelling work. 30.6Could there be another path to awakening?’

31.1Then it occurred to me, 31.2‘I recall sitting in the cool shade of a black plum tree while my father the Sakyan was off working. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. 31.3Could that be the path to awakening?’ 31.4Stemming from that memory came the realization: 31.5That is the path to awakening!’

This is a refutaton of ascetic practices.

13.24Then it occurred to me, 13.25‘This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.’ 13.26Realizing that this teaching was inadequate, I left disappointed.

Again, this is a refutation of his teacher’s dhamma, not specifics of the meditative practice.

Using jhanas and ayatanas under wrong view, is wrong immersion. Using jhanas and ayatanas to understand even such refined bliss is conditioned and there’s something better, is right immersion. This is the argument of the suttas as I see it.

Suttas are consistent that even jhanas without right view are not condusive to enlightenment. It is consistent across the board.

MN 117

3.1“And what is noble right immersion with its vital conditions and its prerequisites? 3.2They are: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness.

35.1In this context, right view comes first. 35.2And how does right view come first? 35.3For one of right view, wrong view is worn away. The term nijjiṇṇa (“worn away”) is associated with the Jains (eg. MN 14:17.8, MN 101:10.8).35.4And the many bad, unskillful qualities that arise because of wrong view are worn away. 35.5And because of right view, many skillful qualities are fully developed. 35.6For one of right thought, wrong thought is worn away. … 35.7For one of right speech, wrong speech is worn away. … 35.8For one of right action, wrong action is worn away. … 35.9For one of right livelihood, wrong livelihood is worn away. … 35.10For one of right effort, wrong effort is worn away. … 35.11For one of right mindfulness, wrong mindfulness is worn away. … 35.12For one of right immersion, wrong immersion is worn away. … 35.13For one of right knowledge, wrong knowledge is worn away. … 35.14For one of right freedom, wrong freedom is worn away. 35.15And the many bad, unskillful qualities that arise because of wrong freedom are worn away. 35.16And because of right freedom, many skillful qualities are fully developed.

So, suttas already talk about Wrong Immersion. It makes sense that if his teachers’ dhamma was inadequate then whatever meditative practice would also bear no fruit, no?

Dn 23, dn 33 & dn 34 also talk about wrong immersion.

If there was a contradiction in the suttas, then there’s ground for proof for discussing historical development. Which, again, I’m not really interested (beyond an intellectual fancy) in analysing. I’m only interested in the logic and dhamma of the suttas, late or early.

I just don’t think the suttas say what you think it does in this case. Ayatanas are not told not to lead to enlightenment; Buddha’s teachers’ dhamma is said not to lead to enligtenment. Repeatedly it’s mentioned that jhanas (and arupas) can be achieved without right view but in such cases, they’re said not to lead to enlightenment.

I’m not even making any claims that this actually is a reflection of reality. I’m just on a bare basics trying to establish what the suttas are saying.

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this is one of the classic moves the ADND Buddhists use (not saying your one @Ceisiwr), they say “X really means Y”. That way they can make the formless into the jhana and the patipada at DN2 into the atthakamagga at SN56.11 and really anything they want into anything they want, because whatever they like can really mean whatever other thing they like.

In DN1, literally the first sutta in Therevada Buddhism, the ucchedavādāns are described as practicing the ayatanas without the jhanas and the diṭṭhadhammanibbānavādāns are described as practicing jhanas without ayatanas.

So we learn in literally the first sutta in the canon that these are two different meditation praxis from two different non-buddhist schools which both already existed at the time the suttas where redacted.

Again, it is incumbent on the opponents of the “redaction” theory to explain how this problem is overcome, where are the ayatanas said to be variations of 4th jahna? why are these variations not mentioned in the description of enlightenment given at DN2, DN3, DN4, DN5, DN6, DN7, DN8, DN9, DN10, DN11 and DN12?

They don’t and you can’t.

"fools errand is your terminology, not mine, the Buddha says;

Tassa mayhaṁ, rājakumāra, etadahosi:
Then it occurred to me,
‘nāyaṁ dhammo nibbidāya na virāgāya na nirodhāya na upasamāya na abhiññāya na sambodhāya na nibbānāya saṁvattati, yāvadeva ākiñcaññāyatanūpapattiyā’ti.
‘This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth in the dimension of nothingness.’

So kho ahaṁ, rājakumāra, taṁ dhammaṁ analaṅkaritvā tasmā dhammā nibbijja apakkamiṁ.
Realizing that this teaching was inadequate, I left disappointed.

So just to be clear the teaching literally is the meditation praxis of ākiñcaññāyatana. And the Buddha literally says that it is inadequate.

YOU say because the teachers had “wrong view” but that term DOES NOT OCCUR in MN85 in fact both Udakka and Alara are said to have

vīriyaṁ …pe…
energy,

sati …
mindfulness,

samādhi …
immersion,

paññā,
wisdom

without a micchi in sight.

Once again, YOU are indulging in the ADND Buddhist “logic” of saying that what the sutta in question really means is something that some other sutta says, and that is your rational for accepting the ayatanas (with the addition of “right view”) as valid praxis.

This rationale is fine as a justification of a choice of religious beleif, but it FAILS to explain why ther eis no mention of ayatanas in the description of the Buddhas enlightenment in MN85 while there IS a mention of jhanas, and it sitll fails to explain why the ayatanas are not mentioned and the jhanas are at DN2, DN3, DN4, DN5, DN6, DN7, DN8, DN9, DN10, DN11 and DN12.

So just to recap re MN85

Yes. They. Are.

Not in MN85 it’s not.

This seems to be your conclusion, which I don’t agree. So I don’t think we can move forward in this discussion. :pray:

Peace.

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There is a way in which they are different and a way in which they are the same. Such nuances are found in the suttas. The 4th Jhāna is different in that there is a perception of form therein, but its the same as the formless in that the equanimity and mindfulness are the same. The Jhānas are changes in vedanā, and so are insight into that. The formless are changes in sañña and so there is insight into that. The change of perception all occurs within the framework of pure equanimity and mindfulness.

In DN1, literally the first sutta in Therevada Buddhism, the ucchedavādāns are described as practicing the ayatanas without the jhanas and the diṭṭhadhammanibbānavādāns are described as practicing jhanas without ayatanas.

I don’t see that set up in DN 1. Those with an Annihilationist view mastered the formless in a previous life, but it doesn’t logically follow they never practiced the Jhānas.

Again, it is incumbent on the opponents of the “redaction” theory to explain how this problem is overcome, where are the ayatanas said to be variations of 4th jahna? why are these variations not mentioned in the description of enlightenment given at DN2, DN3, DN4, DN5, DN6, DN7, DN8, DN9, DN10, DN11 and DN12?

The 4th Jhāna is the standard basis for awakening, but a basis doesn’t determine how. Awakening can occur either through wisdom or through a direct meditative experience. The former is via the 4th Jhāna, the latter through the formless.

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Could this all just be simplified to, ‘did a person come out of it ( or got them straight after exit to be more precise) with insights & dropped defilement’s or not?’ … whether jhanas, arupas, etc etc … and a simple if yes, then it counts for something … and if no, then it was just an experience that was a nothing burger?

… or is that just making things too simple of a division?

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I know I’ve opined about the historicity of the series of eight or nine samadhis. It seems to me that it may have been a later construct that compiled these types of meditation into a hierarchy that mapped to the Buddhist concept of heavens. It functions like a step ladder going higher and higher until one reaches full cessation in the ninth level (which transcends the heavens).

That doesn’t mean the formless samadhis were invented by these redactors, it just seems like a case of Abhidharmists systematizing them into a single meditation model that tied into a concept of wrong samadhi leading to rebirth in the heavens and right samadhi leading to liberation. And the main reason I suspect that is that it appears mainly in texts that are probably on the later end of early Buddhist compositions, like the Parinirvana Sutra and the DN/DA sutras that depicts debates with non-Buddhists.

But that’s a different issue that saying that formless samadhis were a later introduction. That might be, but I think it’s much more speculative. They appear in the early Abhidharma texts as separate topics from the four jhanas like the brahmaviharas do.

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"According to SN/SA suttas, all the nine progressive stages of meditation (i.e. the 4 rūpas, 4 arūpas, and the cessation of perception-and-feeling ‘saññā-vedayita-nirodha’) are the results of mental projection (saṅkhārā).

Only the ‘cessation of desire-hatred-delusion’ is based on true insight of the real world (i.e. ‘right view’)":

Is arupa-loka actually the imaginative world of the mind? - Discussion - Discuss & Discover