Buddhism and divine sanction of the ruler

The Watercooler
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I have been reading in the papers about some political unrest in a buddhist country. Perhaps it’s better if I don’t make the question too specific because I don’t know if it’s allowed here, but the papers write about the sacrosanct rights of the King and the fact that he is there by divine rule. I guess this is the reason why you break the law if you criticize him.

So I was wondering how Buddhism can be used to give Divine justification to a King. I am very aware that in the Middle ages in Europe christianity was used to justify the position of Power of Kings but I’m wondering how and on what basis Buddhism can do that in particular according to EBT?

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The Buddha viewed rulers of all sorts as a necessary feature, desired by the laity … one that could be beneficial or otherwise based on the personal predilection of the ruler. He also points out that they are human… just like us! For all beings experience the kamma of their actions. That is why he encouraged all rulers to rule by Law and not unfairly… yet also acknowledged that achieving such a result was extremely difficult- and probably the abode of Mara. :joy:

DN27

10. The Elected King

Then those beings gathered together and bemoaned, ‘Oh, how wicked things have appeared among beings, in that stealing is found, and blaming and lying and the taking up of rods! Why don’t we elect one being who would rightly accuse those who deserve it, blame those who deserve it, and expel those who deserve it? We shall pay them with a share of rice.’

Then those beings approached the being among them who was most attractive, good-looking, lovely, and illustrious, and said, ‘Come, good being, rightly accuse those who deserve it, blame those who deserve it, and banish those who deserve it. We shall pay you with a share of rice.’ ‘Yes, sirs,’ replied that being. They acted accordingly, and were paid with a share of rice.

‘Elected by the people’, Vāseṭṭha, is the meaning of ‘elected one’, the first term to be specifically invented for them.

‘Lord of the fields’ is the meaning of ‘aristocrat’, the second term to be specifically invented.

‘They please others with principle’ is the meaning of ‘king’, the third term to be specifically invented.

And that, Vāseṭṭha, is how the ancient traditional terms for the circle of aristocrats were created; for those very beings, not others; for those like them, not unlike; legitimately, not illegitimately. For principle, Vāseṭṭha, is the best thing about people in both this life and the next.
…

14. On Bad Conduct

An aristocrat, brahmin, merchant, worker, or ascetic may do bad things by way of body, speech, and mind. They have wrong view, and they act out of that wrong view. And because of that, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

An aristocrat, brahmin, merchant, worker, or ascetic may do good things by way of body, speech, and mind. They have right view, and they act out of that right view. And because of that, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.

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I’m not sure what this would be referring to, as “sacrosanct rights” isn’t really a Buddhist concept.

Not exactly. As Patrick Jory talks about in Thailand’s Theory of Monarchy, the argument is that the King has made such large amounts of merit in the past to become King in the first place that clearly he must be a superior person spiritually and thus worthy of the respect, power, etc that he has in the present.

Wikipedia actually has a decent article on the topic.

Well, the les majest law was explicitly taken from European law (as was, for example, the Thai slogan of “Nation, Religion, and King” which was taken from the British “God, King, and Country”) during Thailand’s “modernization” (ie: Europeanization) period (see Baker’s History of Thailand) but apparently this European hand-me-down has since been “justified” by reference to the Buddha’s admonishment that monks avoid frivolous talk of “kings”

Whether these are convincing justifications for imprisoning lay people, forcibly disrobing monks, and generally continuing the excesses of absolute monarchy well into the 21st century, I will leave as an exercise to the reader. :smile:

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This post is directed to the OP not faujidoc1

The news has probably used ‘divine’ for western consumption. Actually the Buddhist conception of a ruler is that they be a “wheel-turning monarch” (DN 26), one who rules according to the dhamma.

“‘But what, sire, is the duty of an Ariyan wheel-turning monarch?’ 'It is this, my son: Yourself depending on the Dhamma, honoring it, revering, cherishing it, doing homage to it and venerating it, having the Dhamma as your badge and banner, acknowledging the Dhamma as your master, you should establish guard, ward and protection according to Dhamma for your own household, your troops, your nobles and vassals, for Brahmins and householders, town and country folk, ascetics and Brahmins, for beasts and birds. Let no crime prevail in your kingdom, and to those who are in need, give property. And whatever ascetics and Brahmins in your kingdom have renounced the life of sensual infatuation and are devoted to forbearance and gentleness, each one taming himself, each one calming himself and each one striving for the end of craving, if from time to time they should come to you and consult you as to what is wholesome and what is unwholesome, what is blameworthy and what is blameless, what is to be followed and what is not to be followed, and what action will in the long run lead to harm and sorrow, and what to welfare and happiness, you should listen, and tell them to avoid evil and do what is good. That, my son, is the duty of an Ariyan wheel-turning monarch.”

The example of this was Asoka:

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thank you for your answers. Concerning the idea of “a sacrosanct monarchy and a King shielded from public scrutiny” it s from here

In western media such as BBC or CNN I have not found anything on the position of the Sangha on these issues and on the present situation. I know that in the past the sangha participated and helped in the political and economical life the country to some extent for example a forest monk collected huge quantities of gold from his followers to help the country during the financial crisis. I’m wondering whether the Sangha has a position on the present situation and what are the best and most reliable Media to follow the news in this respect?

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that’s very interesting sutta. The sentence above which I copied from your post might imply perhaps that kings ought to teach monks on occasion?

Also perhaps if the King should reign according to the dhamma then people ought to have the right to admonishing in case he doesn’t follow the dhamma?

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Did it really help? :sweat_smile:
As an economist I would only expect something like this to cause local gold prices to skyrocket and possibly fare and stay above international ones.
For any sort of effect in terms of precious metal reserves we would have to see a lot of gold being systematically and continually brought in and kept still for a good while…

Now, on topic, as far as I am concerned the EBT stance should be that monks and nuns don’t get involved in matters of kings, kingdoms etc :man_shrugging:

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Is anyone here knowledgeable in the interplay between Buddhism and Hinduism as it pertains specifically to Thailand? It’s my understanding that Thailand as a purely Buddhist culture is a modern thing. I wonder if Hinduism isn’t just as influential in this situation.

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The sutta is probably referring to ascetics outside the Buddha’s order, since there are several lengthy examples in the suttas where kings seek the advice of the Buddha or an arahant.

-SN 3 is devoted to the questions of King Pasenadi.

-The 18th book of the Kuddaka Nikaya, the Milindapanha contains the questions of the Greek king Milinda ( Menander).

-DN 16 contains questions of a chief minister on behalf of the king, to the Buddha.

However there is a historical example where the king of Thailand intervened to save the declining monkhood of Sri Lanka:

Also perhaps if the King should reign according to the dhamma then people ought to have the right to admonishing in case he doesn’t follow the dhamma?

In India at the time of the Buddha monarchies were changing into republics (note the reference above to the Greek king):

“Tribes like the Buddha’s could be found everywhere in the 6th century BCE, but the Shakyas stand out because their form of government strikingly resembles that of ancient Athens. According to Buddhist sources, the Shakya republic was governed from its capital, Kapilavasthu, by an assembly (the parishad) of five hundred citizens. Though not as large as the Athenian assembly (with its quorum of six thousand for major decisions), the Shakyan legislature needed an officer to manage the proceedings and so elected a raja, something like our Speaker of the House.”—Wikipedia

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Brahmanic rituals play an important part in Thai court (especially coronation) ceremonies and are a part of the mythology of Kingship and sovereignty, but I have yet to hear a Thai person justify Kingship by referencing a “Hindu” concept.

If you’re looking for historical roots, I’d rather point a student of Thai history towards the United States’ Cold War involvement.

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Did it really help? :sweat_smile:
As an economist I would only expect something like this to cause local gold prices to skyrocket and possibly fare and stay above international ones.
For any sort of effect in terms of precious metal reserves we would have to see a lot of gold being systematically and continually brought in and kept still for a good while…

You are economist so you know a lot more than me but it did seem a lot of gold and and in times of financial crisis I know it is an important asset because people can lose trust in Fiat currency. I also know that it depends on whether one country’s debt is denominated in their currency or in a foreign currency (as must have been the case at least in part with Thailand); and in the latter case they are much more in trouble.

Anyway I see your point that the Sangha don’t get involved in matters of kings, kingdoms etc since as far as I understand they are interested in leaving samsara not in trying to improve it.

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wow you are very knowledgeable , thanks for your post :grinning:
I did notice some left-leaning outlook of Western Buddhist including on this forum…, so it is interesting to learn that in Thailand it’s very different.
I guess I must be somewhere in the middle (the middle way? :wink: ) since I must admit that I don’t find it very normal that the king should have a personal wealth estimated at 30 or 40 billions $.

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Thank you, though it’s the result of nothing more impressive than simply living in the country for an extended period of time :grinning:

On the subject of the news, the government has now started censoring some channels (including the Thai ones I mentioned in the post above). I’m not sure how extensive this is but if you are interested in following what’s happening, Twitter is probably the place to go.

I don’t find it very normal that the king should have a personal wealth estimated at 30 or 40 billions $.

You’re not alone in thinking that.

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May I please remind all participants to stick to the forum rules of polite discussion, specially when it comes to discussing politics? And more so when it comes to countries and cultures other than our own? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

This is a friendly place for Dhamma discussion

Participating in this forum should be taken as an opportunity to practice Right Speech. As such, please show the forum and your fellow practitioners the same respect shown in a temple. We, too, are a community spiritual center — a space to share Dhamma ideas, understandings and questions in a supportive atmosphere.

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To reply to an OP you can click on the reply link right at the bottom of the thread.

(Clicking on reply beneath any post addresses the writer of that post.)

:slight_smile:

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