This morning, the younger brother of my sons best ( platonic) girl friend stole a car, and got about 10km down the road before wrapping the car around a pole and ending his short 15 years on this earth. I know the lovely family have been at their wits end having problems with him the past year as he got in to drugs and started behaving in harmful and sometimes violent ways.
It’s made some questions arise in my mind tho about at what age someone is truly considered to be responsible for their own actions.
I believe Judaism decides that is around 13 when bat/ bar mitzvah’s take place.
I know Christianity has a line about JC saying ‘suffer thy children unto me’ … but I’m not sure what age they consider one to no longer be a child.
Spiritualism ( whilst having personal responsibility literally written in their principles) would still not put personal responsibility on a child of that age and would say that children are looked after by spiritual guides, helpers and their already passed loved ones to help them heal and come to terms with what they have done.
Australian society generally gives a free pass until 14 for some legal repercussions, and 16 or 18 for other actions, with the concept that their brains or minds have not sufficiently developed to hold the same responsibilities and repercussions as would apply if over 18.
What would Buddhism say about this tho? Is there any concept of not having true responsibility ( or more so the consequences really) if someone is so young with as yet, a not fully formed brain or mind?
It feels harsh ( to me) if a barely 15 year old is now having a bad time ( ghost or hell realms) on the other side because they went off the rails here whilst young and irresponsible.
I’d like to hear the truth according to Buddhism tho - even if it’s an unfortunate & uncomforting truth.
Btw, I have no intention of saying anything that may be negative to an already grieving family … and if by chance it does come up, … well I’m still very much a Spiritualist and will answer as such. So lay it on me no matter how it may be. It’s just for my own knowledge, reflection and pondering.
If you imagine a world where a young person does not create bad karma, then you would have to also not allow them to collect good karma. So I’d say that this imaginary world would be harsh to ignore any good actions children did. Fortunately we don’t live in that world.
Edit to add: Of course this is different from how a society would choose to deal with children who do bad things.
This line of questioning (in the West) is usually underlying the question of throwing people into prison as a punishment.
Just as Buddhism has no minimum age for karma, Buddhism also has no maximum age after which someone cannot be reformed nor does the Buddha ever advocate for harsh retribution / judgement.
I highly recommend looking up the restorative justice movement if you haven’t already heard of it. It’s one model for what a more humane justice system might look like.
To answer the original question, clarity of intention is a factor in the severity of the karma. Oftentimes kids just do stuff with a rather muddled and conflicted or confused mind… I feel the karma from this should be lighter than karma undertaken with full understanding and clear comprehension.
But yeah, if this young man was involved in this kind of stuff for a while, it’s hard to imagine that karma leading anywhere good. Saṃsāra indeed.
I believe Buddha has seen and teaches that in deepest sense we are all forgiven and all are holy ones. Because it are always adventitious incoming defilements that cause trouble. But this does not mean there is something essentially wrong with us.
Even for a person who kills 999 people, a murderer, there is still the dimension of purity, nobilty, dispassion. Because this remains unaffected by our deeds. This unwordly peace, Nibbana, cannot be affected.
Nothing can undo our holy and pure nature. Nothing. But we are much to focussed and involved in what is adventitious and incoming. It is like we have lost touch with our holiness, our purity, our original nature. Blinded for it.
How can we be responsible in this way? How can we know what is good for our own welbeing and that of others if hormones, tendencies, emotions, drifts, floods make us blind ?
I feel if passions are still so strong and wisdom still weak one cannot be held responsible. But probably this does not mean that this will not have bad consequences (dark kamma vipaka) for others and oneself.
Is there any concept of not having true responsibility ( or more so the consequences really) if someone is so young with as yet, a not fully formed brain or mind?
Consequences are a result of kamma, which is all about intention. And intention isn’t the same with every decision we make, and not everyone makes intention in the same way or the same potency.
The Buddha describes how babies or animals don’t make potent kamma.
From MN78:
For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘a body’, so how could they possibly do a bad deed with their body, aside from just wriggling?
And a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘speech’, so how could they possibly speak bad words, aside from just crying?
And a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘thought’, so how could they possibly think bad thoughts, aside from just whimpering?
And a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘livelihood’, so how could they possibly earn a living by bad livelihood, aside from their mother’s breast?
From MN64, babies are said not to have the 5 lower fetters, but rather the underlying tendency towards it.
Wouldn’t the wanderers of other religions fault you using the simile of the infant?
For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘substantial reality’, so how could substantialist view possibly arise in them?
Yet the underlying tendency to substantialist view still lies within them.
A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘teachings’, so how could doubt about the teachings possibly arise in them?
Yet the underlying tendency to doubt still lies within them.
A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘precepts’, so how could misapprehension of precepts and observances possibly arise in them?
Yet the underlying tendency to misapprehension of precepts and observances still lies within them.
A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘sensual pleasures’, so how could desire for sensual pleasures possibly arise in them?
Yet the underlying tendency to sensual desire still lies within them.
A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘sentient beings’, so how could ill will for sentient beings possibly arise in them?
Yet the underlying tendency to ill will still lies within them.
A large factor determining rebirth is upadhana, what we grasp or have taken up. These include grasping at sensual pleasures, views, precepts and observances, and theories of a self
Here is Bhante Sujato’s annotation regarding upadhana from DN15:
“Grasping” (upādāna ) begins with the primal desire of the senses, but the three other graspings are rather intellectual and sophisticated. Only a grown human being with a developed linguistic ability is able to formulate a view to become attached to, and likewise with attachment to religious observances and vows, and to theories of a self. This is why the bulk of kamma is produced by adult humans, rather than by, say, animals or children, for whom these dimensions of grasping are nascent.
From a baby to an adult human is a process of development towards being able to form stronger intentions and form bigger consequences. Where exactly that lies for a 15 year old I don’t know.
We really can’t know what his intentions were and the brightness/darkness of them. We can guess but only he would know.
It feels harsh ( to me) if a barely 15 year old is now having a bad time ( ghost or hell realms) on the other side because they went off the rails here whilst young and irresponsible.
Even if you assumed he made some bad kamma there, remember kamma is made thoughout a life not just the ending, and also kamma from this life isn’t the only determining factor of rebirth
In terms of:
what age someone is truly considered to be responsible for their own actions.
The Buddha said:
I say that sentient beings are heirs to their deeds.
Sorry, but i believe upadana is not grasping. Tanha is. Tanha is like the first moment one grasps a branch. Upadana is like holding on to it firmly. Not letting go.
Grasping is not under control. But upadana can be. With mindfulnees we can let go and not feed the arising involvement with khandha’s. Tanha is the adherence of mind to mental objects. Skill is like the ability to end this adherence. A glue remover, as it were.
For example, if a bad intention is grasped as me and mine, that implies involvement/engagement with this bad intent. Upadana is like not breaking this engagement. Holding on to it and feeding it, making this engagement stronger.
The sutta’s compare upadana somewhere with adding more wood on fire. Upadana is not grasping but feeding the grasping, holding on to something firmly, not immeditately letting go
Tanha is the housebuilder because it is the initial grasping moment. Become engaged with thoughts, intentions, feelings, perceptions, emotions. And without this no mental house is build in this life nor a next bhava can be grasped after this life.
Thanks for your message. I think I get what you are saying and I think you are describing the same process of reacting to a stimulus and then not breaking this engagement as you say.
There is definitely a lot of overlap in tanha and upadhana but let me ask you this:
In dependent origination, contact (phassa) arises, then from that, feeling (vedana) arises, then from that, craving/wanting/thirst (tanha) arises, then from that grasping/clinging (upadhana) arises
So wouldn’t you agree that tanha is pointing towards that very first reaction to a pleasant or unpleasant sensation? Isn’t that best described as craving/wanting/thirst? The driving force that makes us go out and get what we want
But that going out, acting and actively getting what we want would be what comes after tanha no? Which is upadhana. I agree that upadhana includes holding on like you say, and not letting go.
So I think upadhana would include both the holding on and clinging as you mentioned, but also the reaction we have to craving, the active process of creating our attachments and trying to fulfill our craving. Then those attachments and habits form our existence (bhava) which is what comes after upadhana in D.O.
Which is why grasping is a nice word as it encapsulates both those aspects of actively getting and holding on/taking up
Thanks. I like engagement as the meaning of tanha. We can be engaged with the goal of rebirth in a high realm (bhava tanha), engaged in the goal of extinction (vibhava tanha) and engaged in chasing sensual pleasures (kama tanha). In fact all this is being engaged in a goal and future vision for oneself. One has a vision of becoming happy. A vision of…“i will be and it will be mine” in the case of sensual pleasures and rebirth. And a vision of “i will not be, and it will not be mine” in the case of extinction. In all these cases one is engaged in some future goal that one wants to realise and sees as the end of ones suffering. Like a carrot for the nose.
In another sense engagement can also be with arising formations. Those can be grasped as me and mine. For example me and my feelings, emotions etc. Both meanings of tanha can be found in the sutta’s. Both deal with being engaged.
And also being engaged in a wrong way.
Not really. Tanha here means or like or dislike towards what is felt. It means a reaction of welcoming or aversion/repulsion of what is felt. But in both cases it is again a form of engaging.
I’m not certain of this karma thing, I know many people who have done bad things all of their lives and still come up smelling of roses. My own father being one of those people!
I get confused by it all, kill somebody and your labelled a murderer, kill a few people and you’re labelled a serial killer, yet kill a million people and you’re a conqueror…
Anyway hope you’re ok otherwise, I would like to hear more about the Spirituality side that you follow, I’d like to study it more myself, any good links appreciated!
I think this is the key insight. In my experience, religious understandings of death and tragedy aren’t comforting to people who don’t belong to that religion. The Buddhist understanding of samsara and of kamma are particularly harsh to most Western ears. But even seemingly more supportive comments like “it’s all part of God’s plan” or “he’s in a better place now” can come off pretty tone deaf when said to a non-Christian.
I usually stay with expressing condoleces, validating their experience, and - when possible - try to do something helpful like cooking a meal or giving someone a ride.
I’ve read the bulk of these upon waking at 4.30 am, and have some comments, but I’m going to try to go back to sleep for now and do that at a more sociable hour of the day.
We can never know where someone will go to in their next life, unless we have psychic abilities. This 15 year old may even have attained full enlightenment before passing away (or on the way to their next life).
There is the issue of kamma made in this life, but a very strong determinant is also the kamma that one brings into this life, from past lives. One is the heir of ones past kamma.
The details of individual kamma is one of the unknowables. But just to hypothesize, in order to view some options for comforting possibilities… The young person could have been reaping the fruits of past kamma, as in the acting on particular defilements/delusion etc. However, whatever experiences have been accumulated in this life, depending on how they are processed by the Being, may move them in beneficial or unbeneficial directions.
I always find the Angulimala example interesting. Even though he did unskillful things, his kamma was ascending. The outcome was beneficial. When you compare this to Devadatta, and his unskillful behaviour, the difference was that his kamma was descending, and even the Buddha could do nothing about the strength of the kammic pull.
I find it helpful to focus on the positives. All the positives the parents and friends put in. These are all causes that will impact the kamma. Also, all the positives that the young person had done in their lives. As has been said, it is not black and white, but mixed. There is fruit of past kamma and generation of new kamma. As Stu said, unless one has one of the psychic abilities to see how people will reborn, the exact result cannot be known.
But the simple fact that so many people care about him and wish him well (ie he is not hated and despised) must attest to positive aspects of his character.
May he find peace and develop in a positive direction.
One of the things I find comforting about The Buddhas insights into existence is the operation of kamma @JimInBC . Understanding that the fruits of kamma have a purpose (even if someone goes to a hell realm or whatever, there is a purpose to it) – For some this must occur in order to then be able to start to turn in a positive direction – sometimes it takes that much suffering to begin to see clearly the links of cause and effect. We can see this reflected in the sutta on the 4 types of thoroughbreds AN 4.113 Patodasutta. We all hope to be wise like the first thoroughbred… but this is very rare…
The comforting thing is that none of these states are permanent. So from this perspective I find it comforting that the fruits of kamma, no matter how harsh, are not random or purposeless, but may well be necessary to enable opportunities to turn negative kamma/action around. When one hears, or sees for oneself, the teachings showing the dependently arisen state of Beings, and one understands the link between ethical behaviour (body, speech and mind) and kamma, then one is empowered to cultivate the beneficial and reduce the unbeneficial. Once one has understood this, then one can act as a wise architect of ones future kamma.
Even if difficult and unpleasant in the ‘short term’, ultimately may this experience bring beneficial results to all involved. This is the attitude I have purposefully cultivated for myself for many decades, to turn every instance of suffering into an opportunity for growth. I have found that it actually changes the very nature of how ‘suffering’ is perceived…
Of course, I am only writing this from a Buddhist perspective for practitioners, and I do not advocate this as something appropriate to share, in this form, with actively grieving non-buddhists.
Good point. Hopefully everything pre-teen has helped offset the last year or so.
I think redemption is a universal truth. I could have been this kid. I wasn’t stealing cars or getting in machete fights, but I beat him to the drugs by a few years anyway. If I hadn’t started dating/ living with a policeman at 17 it might have been a very different story. That spiritual slap to the head we talked about( on the side) completed the turn around tho. Im sad for him and his family that he didn’t get to come out the other side too in this lifetime.
I agree with a lot of what you have said, tho I feel that our afterlife experiences are somewhat ( not fully) formed by our own mindset, ( eg: if you expect to go to hell you can create one for yourself whether your karma warrants it or not) … so the most important forgiveness to my mind is forgiveness of self. Yeah, we are bombarded with all sorts of obstacles along the way, ( as u mentioned) some of which we can’t do much about in a given moment, but when conditions evolve and we know better, we do better and it’s ok to be wherever we are on a path of progression … we just need to remember to be kind to ourselves and forgive former versions of self who I too think can hardly be blamed for operating with what they were equipped with at the time.
I use this mindset too, to prevent myself getting angry with people …it works great most of the time - unless they mess with my kids … they are my kryptonite and this mumma bear will get her claws out if anyone harms them. That said, I also question if it’s mere observation or if I’m just arrogant for dismissing peoples nonsense (when my kids are not involved) without anger coz I think to myself they are ‘not equipped’ to have done better. I think about that often and can’t figure it out if it’s a good or bad trait - especially since I’m not fully equipped (evolved) myself and probably unknowingly peeve some people off too. Oh well, whatever, … I forgive myself if I am arrogant
That’s good to hear. Not quite as harsh.
Thank you Beth … and @Jhana4 & @LawnMower I barely knew him myself and only met him in passing whilst picking up/ dropping off his sister who is my sons friend.
I’m thinking of doing some merit for him, … but my kids appear to have ‘antennas’ and last time I did that, the spirit turned up and was seen by my kids as well ( and my dog) and it scared them even tho they knew her. I had one screaming and diving under the coffee table and the other couldn’t sleep properly for 4 days. Not cool! Maybe I’ll go do it at my other house once I find the book with the chant/ recitation in it. Spirit is welcome there but not at the house my kids are based in.
Definitely! I like the Spiritualist version much better … tho it’s not that different to Buddhist ideas is many ways. ‘Eternal progression open to all’ is one of the 7 principles, … as is ‘compensation and retribution for all deeds’ ( a version of karma) Even someone like Hitler gets that’s opportunity - which I’m sure a lot of people don’t like the sound of, … but I think the Abrahamic religions are pretty harsh tho too - one way tickets to hell with no escape? How does it get worse than that? I find that a really harmful idea to put in peoples heads. I’ve certainly encountered many people messed up by that idea anyway. A lot of Baptists and Evangelists seem to come on spiritual sites and say things to grieving people that just make me smh. They can blv what they want, but it’s in no way helpful to tell someone their loved one is burning in hell. I’ve seen it happen soooo many times and really don’t know what they are thinking to come out with things like that
I also endorse people doing practical things like making meals, dropping off groceries etc for those grieving. I’m flat out cooking for myself tho at the moment with multiple fractures … but I’ll get some pizza or something delivered.
Knowing what your dad did, I can only imagine how unfair it must feel. At least the person in my family who acted likewise has reaped some of what he sowed. From my observations, you can’t hide anything on the other side, not even a passing thought, … I blv one day he will have remorse and eventually grow from that, … and one day you will forgive him too if u haven’t already.
You live in Spiritualism central btw - its home to the biggest governing body in the SNU, the oldest investigatory body in the SPR, Arthur Findlay college ( like Hogwarts for mediums - and people travel there from all over the world - def on my bucket list) and it has more Spiritualist churches than any other country. I’ll send you some link’s tomorrow. I’m not here to convert anyone tho so keep up with your Buddhist learning ok … a lot of it can go hand in hand.
Well, from what I’ve read, it can only take a moment in some circumstances. It would be nice to think that happened.
I’ll have to read up on Angulimala and Devadatta … I think I recall something about doing a bit mass murder on one side of a river and being all nice and generous on the other. I’m not sure which one it was tho,… or what the other one did. I’ll check it out.
Totally agree with turning perceived negatives in to positives. I typically look for, and usually find, the gold in the rubble.
Far more trivial situation, but I was doing a spot of gratitude a couple of weeks ago about my broken arm and it was surprising how many positives I came up with. I got a bit carried away tho as during it I had a particularly bad flare up of pain and without thinking I looked at my arm and said thank you out loud … then I laughed my head off thinking what sort of weirdo would say that in response to pain … so even my pain became a positive source of amusement.
Imo tho, emotional pain is a harder one to get thru, but I hope that one day, in some way, this family heals and finds something positive to make them think of their loved one and smile again.
I’ve only read about the The Buddha, I never got any further than that, but through a few twists and turns from joining here, I found that Jiddu Krishnamurti chap and totally connect with everything he says. So I’m thankful to this place for leading me there. I would of never heard of him otherwise.
I didn’t forgive by the way, I skipped that part and just forgot, and yes it was all positive, I lost count of how many bullies at school came to a sad demise from his rather unusual Christian teaching methods. But violence really does breed violence!
Nature is the only thing I fully trust, it absorbs me, guides me and at times comes to my aid whether I want it too or not!
A couple of things though on my path you might be able to shed some light on, I’ll message you later as my observations here show some ‘running the fox and hunting with the hounds’ behavior !
Never heard of him …. I’m a curious person tho so I’ll add that to my detours to go look at.
It also bred in to you compassion and defending those who couldn’t defend themselves. So that’s an definate upside to a shitty situation
I’ll certainly try -if I can.
Yeah - anytime. Happy to help. I’ve silently been clapping for you when I’m seeing the right spelling versions in the right places. You have grasped it really well. Well done
Angulimala was a mass serial killer that the Buddha encountered… long story short… he went forth under the Buddha and attained enlightenment.
Devadatta was the Buddhas cousin, and had many bad traits corrupting others and also trying to kill the Buddha in order to take over the Sangha.
Friend, we do not know this person’s destination. Even immoral people can be reborn in heaven in their next life or moral people can be reborn in states of woe in their next life.
“Ānanda, these four people are found in the world. What four? It’s when a person here kills living creatures, steals, and commits sexual misconduct. They use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re covetous, malicious, and have wrong view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.
But some other person here kills living creatures, steals, and commits sexual misconduct. They use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re covetous, malicious, and have wrong view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.
But some other person here refrains from killing living creatures, stealing, committing sexual misconduct, or using speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re contented, kind-hearted, and have right view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.
But some other person here refrains from killing living creatures, stealing, committing sexual misconduct, or using speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re contented, kind-hearted, and have right view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.
MN 136
Only a being like a Buddha can know and be fit to judge an individual’s destination (AN 6.44).
As Viveka mentioned, kamma is one of the imponderable questions that lead to madness or frustration when pondered upon. There is no good end to contemplating these subjects. At best, thoughts just go round and round without resolution. Better to leave them aside and focus on putting the Dhamma into practice in your daily life for your own and others’ benefit. Doing so will gradually give you more peace surrounding this sort of situation. This peace will benefit both you and others you interact with around the situation.
“Mendicants, these four things are unthinkable. They should not be thought about, and anyone who tries to think about them will go mad or get frustrated. What four?
The scope of the Buddhas …
The scope of one in absorption …
The results of deeds …
Speculation about the world …
These are the four unthinkable things. They should not be thought about, and anyone who tries to think about them will go mad or get frustrated.”
it may be. It’s just for my own knowledge, reflection and pondering.
Saṃsāra indeed.
… especially for one so young.
offer.
- especially since I’m not fully equipped (evolved) myself and probably unknowingly peeve some people off too. Oh well, whatever, … I forgive myself if I am arrogant 
