Buddhist Cosmology

I always astonished by the Buddha’s knowledge of the cosmos.
Same time I doubt about his knowledge about the cosmos.
So I post the following in DW.
For my surprise a friend point me to the following Sutta reference.
How the hell Buddha learn this!

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"This great earth, Ananda, is established upon liquid, the liquid upon the atmosphere, and the atmosphere upon space. And when, Ananda, mighty atmospheric disturbances take place, the liquid is agitated. And with the agitation of the liquid, tremors of the earth arise. This is the first reason, the first cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka … .vaji.html

https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21092&start=180#p410803

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Before I read above post I had the following misunderstanding .
“This great liquid is established upon earth, the atmosphere upon the liquid, and the space upon atmosphere.”

Now I have no doubt that Buddha knew what he was talking about.
The question:
Is Buddha’s explanation for the reason for the earthquake compatible with modern understanding?

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I found this about the destruction of the world by seven suns in the Purana text of Hindu:

The passage I found about this is in the Vishnu Purana book IV chapter III:

I don’t know whether the Vishnu Purana is as old as EBTs or not because Wikipedia said many disagreements about it’s composition date, but I think the concept of world destruction by seven suns is not unknown by ancient Indian traditions (Buddhist, Hindu, and others).

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3rd to 16th century as per Wikipedia.

The composition date of Vishnu Purana is unknown and contested, with estimates widely disagreeing.[9] Some proposed dates for the earliest version[note 1] of Vishnu Purana by various scholars include:

  • Vincent Smith (1908): 400-300 BCE,[9]
  • CV Vaidya (1925): ~9th-century,[9]
  • Moriz Winternitz (1932): possibly early 1st millennium, but states Rocher, he added, “it is no more possible to assign a definite date to the Vishnu Purana than it is for any other Purana”.[9]
  • Rajendra Chandra Hazra (1940): 275-325 CE[9]
  • Ramachandra Dikshitar (1951): 700-300 BCE,[9][21]
  • Roy (1968): after the 9th century.[9]
  • Horace Hayman Wilson (1864): acknowledged that the tradition believes it to be 1st millennium BCE text and the text has roots in the Vedic literature, but after his analysis suggested that the extant manuscripts may be from the 11th century.[9][22]
  • Wendy Doniger (1988): c. 450 CE.[23]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu_Purana

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I think I’m not far off summarizing the current understanding of Indian text chronology as:
Vedas - Aranyakas - Brahmanas - Early Upanisads - EBT - Grya Sutras/Panini - Dharma Sutras - Epics - Puranas

(Mind you this is about the composition, not the content)

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I just can’t resist sharing this Dhamma doodle by Ven. Yodha here:

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I don’t think when speaking of “elements” the suttas are talking about what we understand today as chemical elements as represented in the periodic table. It rather seems that these “elements” describe some fundamental or “elementary” properties of matter, like solidity, cohesion, temperature, etc. Or, if you like, they just describe the three states of aggregation, solid, liquid, and gas, and as the fourth temperature or energy, the medium that makes them change from one to the other.

And this is not just a weird interpretation of a statement of the suttas or an attempt to accommodate them to one’s views, but that’s what I was taught by my chemistry teacher at school some 40 years ago. Probably he knew nothing about the suttas, but similar ideas of “elements” had also been around in Europe before the scientific era, and that’s what he was referring to.

So when reading the suttas for the first time it never occurred to me that these passeges on “elements” could be meant to describe the sort of elements as are listed in the periodic table.

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I can confirm that. I did a lengthy study on dhatu a while ago and based on the suttas had to conclude that it means ‘quality’ or ‘characteristic’ - and not element. It’s not Buddhist btw. The older Indians knew this category of ‘mahabhuta’ (slightly different) already. Only the title ‘dhatu’ was fairly new and introduced by the EBT. The next known Indian dhatu-concept was Panini who called verbal roots ‘dhatu’ in his grammar. Eventually the meaning of ‘quality’ or ‘characteristic’ went lost and (probably along with abhidhammic thinking) the meaning of ‘element’ became the dominant interpretation. Yet Thanissaro also sometimes translates as ‘quality’ or ‘property’ afair.

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I really enjoyed reading this, Bhante. Food for thought, indeed. Thank you.

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Yes, I agree.

And I think the following is quite relevant here too:

Indeed I’ve heard Ajahn Brahm say that he used to ask himself the same question, based, I suppose in his old worldly conditioning, of why these 4 were referred to as “elements”. He said, something along the lines of eventually realising that the Buddha was referring to how the chemical elements (as we know them today) appeared.


This is a beautiful essay.

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I fully agree!

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Thank you for this very interesting essay, Bhante. One thought that jumped out at me: is it not possible that this is similar to statements like those referring to large numbers used to make a point? It also wouldn’t be too hard to extrapolate from what was visible in space.

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Dear Bhante,
You just added a new dimension, a new impetus to my practice of Dhamma. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu.
With Metta

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Wonderful read! Thank you Bhante.

I remember reading an article many years ago that the 'Big Bang" theory was being revisited by physicists. They said they were now thinking that there were periods of expansion and contraction, so big bangs happen in cycles, over and over again, potentially forever. Then when I read in suttas the Buddha describing that exact process in almost the same language, it was a shock. How could he have known that if he didn’t have unparalleled insight and knowledge? :smiley:

While there are parts of his description of the physical world which don’t jibe with our own current understanding (like earthquakes being caused by “winds”), we may find out later he was right. We assume so much that our current knowledge is the be all end all, but think about all the wrong ideas we have had in recent memory. We’re learning more all the time. What is interesting is the more we learn about the natural world, for the most part, the more the big stuff falls in line with dhamma or at least doesn’t contradict it.

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Actually earthquakes and winds (or currents) are already on point. Wind or current power is kinetic energy, and we are on continental plates which are drifting apart, sliding under each other, suddenly releasing massive kinetic energy in suddenslides, collapses, etc. To identify it as kinetic energy, and with some fluid dynamics in magma etc is remarkable… and off hand I cannot think of another ancient writer or culture who got all that. I am not a geologist or seismologist, so if anything is badly stated, do please correct me.

What I am intrigued with is dark matter, the must-exist mass responsible for significant gravitational affects, but has yet to be “proven” or detected directly. New experiments in 2018, likely to be in news in near future. If EBTs have anything to say about that, …yay. lol.

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No it’s not, really. Kinetic energy is just the energy of motion. And to recognize that the movements of the earth and the movements of the atmosphere are both different kinds of movement hardly takes any insight. Also, we know from direct observational experience that winds can sometimes catastrophically move large terrestrial objects, such as when it knocks down a house or a tree. So to speculate that earthquakes might be triggered by something analogous to winds would be a natural speculation for ancient thinkers.

Aristotle also believed that earthquakes were caused by the release of winds caught inside the earth.

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Some very deep interesting questions:…am going to drop them as they develop.

What are your thoughts on “Why” expansion and contraction…there ought to be an underlying reason for this?

Yet there are many world systems…all fabricated…but why do they exist and for what purpose?

Right conditions?..yet is it not just another fabrication? an illusion? Yet it is a perfect illusion…is that possible?

Then this would suggest there are clearly different ways of seeing. One of external and one of internal via the mind. As the text says: the origination, the creation and the cessation.
Furthermore, it also highlights the difference between this 3 dimensional world as appearances and the alternative being more like linear, 2d and directly accessible.

As the teaching is via the middle way, on the subject of not-self via impermanence yet it doesn’t take an enlightened person to see that which is obvious (maybe not), the difference between “not-self” and that of the environment “world system” where one finds oneself…conditioned within it.

We may group them under the same umbrella of impermanence but clearly it is beyond the not-self, that which is outside the perspective of the deluded self view. Is it possible that there is an illusion within an illusion to be resolved?

Thanks for responding. It’s rather gratifying to have an articulate and philosophically trained adversary in this sort of debate.

Let me start with your last point, about the constitution of matter. The evidence from the Early Buddhist Texts (EBTs) suggests the Buddha never set out to understand the nature of the material world. His insights into cosmology, assuming they are such, were really a by-product of his spiritual search for an end to suffering. A full understanding of suffering requires a comprehensive understanding of existence. It was only as part of this search that he came to see aspects of cosmology. Or this, at least, appears to be the view from the EBTs.

As for the fundamental elements of matter, there was probably no reason for the Buddha to take an interest in this. The analysis of matter into “the four great elements” was probably sufficient for his purpose, which was simply to show that the material body is no different from external materiality. Even if he had known about the elements of the periodic table – and I cannot see any reason why he would – it would have been counterproductive to bamboozle his audience with unnecessary information, even if this happened to reflect more accurately the makeup of the physical world. It was easier and more productive for the Buddha to pass on his message using an existing framework for understanding matter – which after all was close enough to reality in its own limited way – than to try to discover a deeper reality and then teach that, assuming he even had this ability. According to the simile of the handful of leaves, the Buddha left most of his knowledge out of his teachings, simply because it was irrelevant to the task at hand, the ending of suffering.

Your reference to Greek philosophy is interesting, and it seems clear that the Stoic conception of the universe has much in common with the Buddhist conception. I can see three potential explanations for this: (1) Coincidence, perhaps due to a propensity for humans to think along similar lines; (2) a common source for the correct understanding of the universe; (3) borrowing from one civilisation to the other. Personally I think the third option is quite likely to be true. In his work “The Shape of Ancient Thought,” the scholar Thomas McEvilley has shown how much information seems to have flowed between ancient India and ancient Greece. He mentions, for instance, reincarnation, which he argues was a Pythagorean borrowing from India.

The second possibility – that both cultures tapped into a common source of knowledge, perhaps the recollection of past lives :grinning: – cannot be eliminated. I am not sure how to evaluate this, however, and so I will leave it out.

The first possibility seems unlikely to me, unless it can be shown that this idea has arisen independently in a number of different cultures. It has been shown, for example, (by the Princeton University anthropologist Gananath Obeyesekere, in “Imagining Karma: Ethical Transformation in Amerindian, Buddhist, and Greek Rebirth”) that the idea of reincarnation has arisen independently in a number of different cultures. But I am not aware of any studies that show the same for cosmological models. In sum, I think the third option is most likely to be true.

But I don’t want to push this argument too far. There is enough uncertainty about the exact meaning of the Pali to avoid making too strong a claim. What we find in the suttas is a description of the world (loka) going through a period of evolution (vivaṭṭati, “rolling out”) followed by a period of devolution/dissolution (saṃvaṭṭati, “rolling together”), each one called an “aeon,” a kappa. One aeon is followed by another, etc., and so we are seeing a cyclical pattern. From the context it is clear that these aeons were very long (they occur at the end of a sequence of ascending numbers of rebirth, following the number 100,000). Given this meagre information, it is impossible, I think, to know with certainty what these texts mean by “world-evolution.” Still, taking into account the broader outlook of the EBTs (including what appears to be the gradual reappearance of the world after the end of an aeon, the rebirth of beings in non-physical realms when the aeon comes to an end, etc.) I do think, on balance, that the suttas are describing a Big Bounce model of the universe.

What is more remarkable than the apparent Big Bounce model, however, is the description of the warming up of the sun and the burning up of the Earth in the Severn Suns Sutta at AN 7.66. Here there is much less scope for interpretation, I think, and I would guess the passage is unique to Buddhist cosmology. And what about the suttas that mention life in other solar systems? Is there any parallel to this in any other ancient culture?

Thanks. My understanding is that Purānas post-date the Early Buddhist Texts by many centuries. So I do not think this is enough to show that Brahmanism had similar ideas that were independent of Buddhism. Nevertheless, this is certainly interesting, and it shows the close connection between the various religions of India.

Well, yes, large numbers should not taken as being precise references. Still, the suttas distinguish between one hundred, one thousand, a hundred thousand, etc. For these distinctions to be meaningful they cannot just refer to any large number, but must be relatively close to the number mentioned. So when we read one thousand to the third power, we can assume, I think, that it means something in the ballpark of one billion.

And thanks to everyone else for your additional information and kind comments. More later.

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I think this is the most fundamental aspect of what the 4 “elements” ultimately result in as a phenomenological category for us humans, namely rūpa, ie form or my preference “appearance”.

This comes through most clearly in the distinction between us poor humans and Brahmas - both types of Existence are predicated upon “form” but the 4 Greats are not found in the Brahmas. To me, it strikes me as being meaningless to characterise the 4 Greats as “elements” in the Western sense when their only function seems to be to distinguish the appearance of different types of Existence. This is also borne out by the DN 11 distinction between the Brahma 's existence with form, versus the Existence that is anidassana (invisible).

And what is immediately apparent in a human being as an “element”? It simply does not make sense to force “in-&-out breath” into an artificial Western ontological thingy like “element”, when the wind “dhātu” here is nothing more than what the pre-Buddhist Upanisads would deem to be functionalities that keep one alive. These are things that are part of the Indian concept of the “seen, heard, sensed and cognised”. These are visible aspects of one’s Being.

Reading the EBTs, the texts militate against reading “form” as being something physical alone. See MN 28, where the Form Aggregate born of pure mental contact simply leaves no place for the dhātu being an element in a Western sense, but points to Form being any kind of cognisable data of something’s appearance.

This is what the humans of Iron Age India cling to as Self, given that their limits of cognition stop at the 4 Greats and derived Form. If a New Age type today would propose some kind of phenomenological datum worth clinging to that transcends the 4 Greats, i don’t think such would escape what DN 15 calls designation-contact.

The genius of the Buddha was in discovering that no matter how one conceives one’s Being, if one constructs one with Form, at minimum the Conceit “I am” would inevitably anuseti.

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The cosmological aspects that you mentioned are truly outstanding, bhante. But they are also a bit weird in that they are not used a lot. We don’t know for example that the texts identify the stars as suns or loka-dhatus. It could well be that everything we see at night is part of ‘our’ upper realm. For example SN 22.102 says:

Just as, bhikkhus, the radiance of all the stars does not amount to a sixteenth part of the radiance of the moon, and the radiance of the moon is declared to be their chief…

This could be a hint that the moon was seen as a giant star. Also we don’t get the idea of a heliocentric system from the suttas. Rather anthropo- and geocentric:

When the people of the towns and countryside are unrighteous, the sun and moon proceed off course… the constellations and the stars proceed off course… day and night proceed off course… When the winds blow off course and at random, the deities become upset. When the deities are upset, sufficient rain does not fall… (AN 4.70)

We find in the suttas that “the sun and moon revolve” which speaks for the ‘normal’ ancient view. Also one of the superpowers in the suttas is:“with his hand he touches and strokes the moon and sun” which is a weird image to come up with if one knew the atmospheric conditions of the sun (it’s gas and radiation, so there is nothing to touch).

Another example of mythology and cosmology:

Bhikkhus, there are these four defilements of the sun and moon because of which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze, and radiate. What four? Clouds … fog … smoke and dust … and Rāhu, lord of the asuras, is a defilement of the sun and moon because of which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze, and radiate. (AN 4.50)

Also we rather get the image that the earth is endlessly flat and not round. Here the Buddha says:

In the past, Bhante, I was a seer named Rohitassa, son of Bhoja, one possessing psychic potency, able to travel through the sky. My speed was like that of a light arrow easily shot by a firm-bowed archer… My stride was such that it could reach from the eastern ocean to the western ocean. Then, while I possessed such speed and such a stride, the wish arose in me: ‘I will reach the end of the world by traveling.’ Having a life span of a hundred years, living for a hundred years, I traveled for a hundred years without pausing except to eat, drink, chew, and taste, to defecate and urinate, and to dispel fatigue with sleep; yet I died along the way without having reached the end of the world. (AN 4.45, SN 2.26)

This would have been a good opportunity to let the reader know that eventually he ended up at the same place. Certainly with a ‘stride from ocean to ocean’ and the ‘speed of an arrow’ (about 150mph) a being should have quickly surrounded the earth.

So why the idea of loka-dhatus and cosmic cycles of roll-outs at all? For me it’s basically an ingenious expansion of the rebirth-logic. If every being has been reborn, then the ‘first’ being, i.e. Maha-brahma, or Prajapati must have been reborn as well. If our lives are not ‘special’ then our heaven-and-earth are also neither special nor permanent. If there is a samsara for beings, then for devas and cosmic bodies too. That’s at least how I would read it: a devastating expansion of samsara that would create awe and determination to get out of the cycle of rebirths.

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