Buddhist "ethics" don't exist, traditional Buddhism had no ethical system

I have recently discovered this blogpost, which is from a Dzogchen (Nyingma Tibetan) Buddhist practitioner. Apparently, he claims that in actuality, there’s no such thing as Buddhist ethics at all and that traditional Buddhism didn’t really have an ethical system.

Some relevant quotes from the summary section:

This assertion relies on a distinction between “ethics,” which involve justifications, and “morals,” which are statements about right and wrong that are given without explanations. Traditional Buddhism has only morality, not ethics, in this sense. Some modern academic Buddhist ethicists attempt to supply the missing justifications, by borrowing Western ethical principles.

Karma and compassion are often said to be the fundamental principles of Buddhist ethics. However, neither of these actually supplied systematic foundations for Buddhist morality. Most traditional moral teachings aren’t justified in terms of either one. In fact, it’s rare for them to claim any justification at all.
Karma and compassion are also utterly inadequate as bases for a modern ethical system. Acting to improve your karma, in hope of a better next life, is just self-interest. Compassion is a transitory subjective feeling; if people only acted ethically when they felt compassion, wrongdoing would be far more common.

Traditional Buddhism has various codes of conduct, and lists of virtues, that are semi-moralistic. This section discusses the lay precepts, vinaya, the bodhisattva paramitas, and samaya. These are rules or ideals for conduct.
None of these seems to have been intended as a systematic code of morals. In each code, some rules have no moral content. None of them gives broad coverage of moral topics. They are incoherent lists, without any explanations for why things are right or wrong. That means they give no guidance when rules conflict.
None of them contains anything that would come as useful news to Westerners. Traditional Buddhist moral teachings that are correct are all found in other religions, including Christianity.

I wanted to ask what people’s thoughts are on this article, based off of what EBTs state (by the way, the author of that blogpost says that tantra is a completely different approach to enlightenment from the ground-up, and he distinguishes and doesn’t really like what he calls the sutrayana approach, though he is talking about “traditional” Buddhism, EBTs come into play).

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I think that some might get the impression that Buddhist ethics doesn’t exist because:

(1) it appears to them that in the EBTs that the Buddha primarily gave self-regarding instrumental reasons for complying with ethical rules; and

(2) they believe that self-regarding instrumental reasons are not sufficient to ground ethics.

It seems to me that one could object to this by arguing either:

(1) that there are objective non-instrumental reasons to comply with ethical rules, and this is sufficient to ground ethics (cognitivist realism a la Parfit, Singer, Rawls, and nearly everyone else in contemporary philosophy);

(2) that subjective instrumental reasons are sufficient to ground ethics, and such reasons exist (cognitivist subjectivisms a la Rand);

(3) that (2) would be true, but there aren’t actually any such reasons and there is no basis for ethics at all (cognitivist nihilism a la Nietzsche and Mackie);

(4) that there aren’t any objective non-instrumental reasons, but they aren’t required to ground ethics (irrealisms a la young Singer, Ayer, Gibbard, etc).

The crux of the issue seems to be the nature of karma: Does the “law” of karma provide instrumental/non-instrumental and/or self-regarding/altruistic reasons and, if it does, is this sufficient to ground ethics?

Unfortunately, I don’t have the resources to answer this question.

I’ll just observe that Nietzsche seems to have thought that the Buddha was a moral nihilist, but that the Buddha’s axiology was life denying (ie he thought that the Buddha was of the opinion that it would be better to not exist because nothing is objectively of value, because everything is suffering). This may have been coloured by the fact (I think) that Nietzsche read the Buddha through Schopoenhauer.

I should also note that I’m mostly treating this as a metaethical issue, rather than a matter of practical or normative ethics, or moral epistemology.

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Try:
Buddhist Ethics, Saddhatissa, Hamnalawa,
Wisdom Publications, Boston, 2003

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It’s also important to understand the author of that website. He is an extreme iconoclast and appears to like to promote extreme polemics. If that’s your thing, then he’s your guy. Otherwise, not so much.

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Wait what? An iconoclast? How can a Dzogchen practitioner be an iconoclast?

I’m not aware of any ‘extreme polemics’ he’s engaging in, I just know of this series of essays by him.

I will check it out, thank you!

Then what exactly does he call the 5 Sila that are repeated ad nauseam all trough the canon?

IMO they are also not just some lovely random rules, but make sense within the philosophical context of the teaching.

If I complain about death, I can not kill other beings myself.

If I complain about poverty and crime, I cannot steal myself.

If I complain about egoism and ignorance, I cannot lie myself.

If I complain about not getting what I want and getting what I don’t want, I can not myself cheat on the person that is in love with me.

If I complain about pleasures and indulgences leading to Dukkha, I cannot let myself get intoxicated.

So I think that all these are a matter of personal consequence and highly valid.

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Some might take them to be iconoclasts for rejecting the necessity of the lower tantras and sutras for achieving liberation.

Eg:

“Butchers, p**********, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss.”
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

David Chapman is an old friend and a very insightful man. (Back in the day, he was an AI pioneer at MIT, but I guess we can’t talk about that anymore). Of course, he’s using the fact that Buddhism has no ethics, as part of a larger argument that probably won’t appeal to any who is not already a Tantrika. His thing was that (his form of) Tantric Buddhism is the best form of Buddhism for the modern world.

I remember when he first posted these arguments and they felt very fresh and challenging at the time. He is a good writer and a great polemicist.

Chapman was one of the first people outside of academia to read and absorb the message of David McMahan’s The Making of Buddhist Modernism. He was arguing against Buddhist Modernism, but also arguing for a particular kind of reform movement within Tibetan Tantric Buddhist tradition.

Not long after this, however, Chapman stopped writing about Buddhism and began to focus on a developmental theory proposed by Robert Kegan. All his work and his following began to discuss “getting from stage 4 to stage 5”. I still don’t get it.

Chapman is essentially right about the facts. There has long been a philosophical distinction between morals which are rules for behaviour and ethics which are principles for making moral rules. I think the way that Damien Keown actually put it was that there are no ethical treatises in Buddhism. (I no longer have a copy to hand, so I’m quoting from memory).

The implication of this is that there is no discussion of the principles on which we might formulate new rules. For example, suppose we decided that the “five precepts” needed to be expanded. There is no traditional text that we could consult which could guide us in formulating a sixth precept. And indeed the five precepts of Buddhism—a religion that preaches “everything changes”—have not changed for millennia.

Chapman was too quick to dismiss karma, but he was on the right track with that too. Karma can’t really help us design moral rules because the effects of karma are not visible to us (on the whole). Moreover, again quoting from memory, there are texts that say: don’t even try to think about how karma works, you’ll go mad. Early Buddhist texts don’t propose karma as an ethical principle.

The closest we get is the Buddha talking to the Kālāmas, a text that I think has been widely and wildly misinterpreted as a restatement of Liberal/Protestant values, notably individualism. I forget who called the Kālāma Sutta “a charter for freewill” but it’s clearly nothing of the kind in Pāli.

The prohibitions the Buddha states for the Kālāma lack a verb in Pāli.

mā anussavena, mā paramparāya, mā itikirāya, mā piṭakasampadānena, mā takkahetu, mā nayahetu, mā ākāraparivitakkena, mā diṭṭhinijjhānakkhantiyā, mā bhabbarūpatāya, mā samaṇo no garūti. (AN I 189)

What we expect, and what is absent, is a verb in the 2nd person aorist. So mā anussavena means “don’t [do something] with hearsay”. But don’t do what? The verb is missing so we don’t know. There is no basis for morality here. Worse, translators always supply a verb that fits their preconceptions and this is the gap into which Liberal/Protestant values are inserted.

Later, in the Kālāma Sutta, the Buddha recommends a way of thinking about morality:

Yadā tumhe, kālāmā, attanāva jāneyyātha – ‘ime dhammā akusalā, ime dhammā sāvajjā, ime dhammā viññugarahitā, ime dhammā samattā samādinnā ahitāya dukkhāya saṃvattantī’ti, atha tumhe, kālāmā, pajaheyyātha.

When you know for yourselves – ‘these things are unskilful, these things are offensive, these things are criticised by the intelligent, these things undertaken and accomplished result in harm and misery’ – then you should abandon them.

Arguably one knows for oneself because of the way people respond to each other’s behaviour. Here we see hints of virtue ethics, consequentialist ethics, and particularist ethics; but in the end no clear ethical principles. The morality here seems to be: try to get along with other people.

But note that “unskilful” and “results in harm” are not two different things in Buddhism. The latter is the definition of the former.

The closest we get in Buddhism to a moral principle that might be used to guide forming rules is the idea of avoiding causing harm (ahiṃsa). But such principles are explicitly applied to ourselves, not to others.

The precepts are phrased in the first person: samādiyāmi “I undertake…”. They are not rules that we can expect anyone else to follow. At best we can remind people of their undertaking if they have made one. Is this really morality?

A major problem for Buddhist ethics, is that morality is actually secondary in Buddhist soteriology. One does need to be good enough to be reborn as a human with access to Buddhist teaching, but if one is too good, then one is born in a devaloka and liberation from rebirth is delayed by thousands of human lifetimes. Paradoxically, being perfectly good is not conducive to liberation because one would never be reborn as a human.

Having attained a human birth there is no great emphasis on morality in Pāli. Liberation comes from samādhi and paññā, and in this context sīla is largely concerned with supporting samādhi.

Sīla—in the sense of “restraint, guarding the gates, etc”—is aimed at reducing the impact of sensory deprivation in meditation. The initial effects of withdrawing attention from sensory experience (i.e. abandoning dhammas) are identical to those documented with sensory deprivation. Sīla effective asks us to reduce the amount of sensory stimulation we experience. This is why some Indians recommend avoiding spicy food also. According to this view, the Buddhist should be asking “What’s the blandest thing on the menu?”

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AN4.77

Thanks for your post.

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OMG OMG OMG OMG ITS YOU. I READ YOUR WRITINGS ON YOUR BLOG AND ON BUDDHISM STACKEXCHANGE. I ALSO READ YOUR COMMENTS ON HIS BLOG.

Brilliant post as always! Quite helpful - I think you understand what David wrote better than anyone else here.

The general principle is: anything done motivated by greed, hatred, and delusion creates bad kamma. Anything done motivated by non-greed, non-hatred, and non-delusion is good kamma, and when directed at the noble 8fold path is neither dark nor bright kamma. If have mixed intentions, then both bright and dark.

The 10 unwholesome actions are kammas serious enough to create rebirth in lower realms. Avoid those first. Then smaller things like craving for a certain types of food is dealt with later.

Disagree. The Buddha is also teacher of gods. It’s perfectly ok to be reborn as devas and wait for the next Buddha to listen to him and get enlightened. Also, gods can willingly end their life and be reborn as humans, as the first few chapters of the questions of king milinda shows how the god mahāsena did it to become the human nāgasena.

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Thank you for that write up. It was detailed and insightful. As a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner who is strictly a student of sutrayana and not tantra it is clear I need to grapple with this persons interesting thesis at some point! :pray:

Hey its you! I remember seeing you back on the Buddhism StackExchange! Good to see that you’re doing well :smiley:

I did a quick read of David Chapman’s blog (@magic_mahou’s reference).

I found this on his website Meaningness:

I have founded, managed, grown, and sold a successful biotech informatics company. That may explain a certain practical orientation, and lack of interest in philosophical theories that depend on the world being very unlike the way it appears.

This sounds about right, after reading the blog. He sounds like someone who’s been through the school of hard knocks, as they say.

I appreciate that heads-up, Ven. @Snowbird.

:smile: you mentioned this tangent Jayarava so I must share this from his website:

Artificial intelligence is harmful and risky. Promises that it will somehow lead to a utopian future lack any specific substance. We can probably get its hypothetical benefits without the risks.

My book Better without AI explains what you can do to stop it.

Anyway, moving on:

I agree in large part with Chapman’s blog.

I agree with that, too.

I think it’s way too much to expect any of the axial age religions & systems to have provided explicit ethical frameworks. That would be like I Was Country When Country Wasn’t Cool, to dredge up the 1981 American country music song.

There was nothing comparable, at that time, to today’s world in terms of complexity, wealth distribution, and magnitude of violence. Isn’t this what calls us to grapple with ethics now? As in, totally rethink them? We are post Guns, Germs, and Steel. We need ethical responses for specific crises that weren’t on the radar during axial age times.

For more historical context (with a novel theory), I highly recommend David Graeber’s Debt: The First 5,000 Years. It’s not a quick read; if nothing else, read the chapter The Axial Age.

So here I’ll bring up Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book The Buddha’s Teachings on Social and Communal Harmony. It’s the only book I’m familiar with for Buddhists who would like a thorough overview of the Buddha’s EBT teachings on, well, social and communal harmony. To Jayarava’s point on morality, this getting along with other people is a lifelong education & practice if we capture it in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s sense. (Just read the table of contents.)

I’ll also mention Matthieu Ricard’s Altruism book (also not a quick read!). Of course, he draws on Tibetan Buddhist influences that go beyond the EBT. But it is the only book I’ve run across over the years that talks about what a Buddhist ethical system might look like in practice in today’s conventional world.

Anyone know of other stuff out there?

This is an interesting list and I’ll be thinking it through.
:pray: :elephant:

To everyone saying canon doesn’t provide an ethical tradition, I would ask them what is an example of an ethical teaching / philosophy and why Buddhism differs from that specifically.

SN55.7 and stuff like that provide a basic empathetic framework:

It’s when a noble disciple reflects: ‘I want to live and don’t want to die; I want to be happy and recoil from pain. Since this is so, if someone were to take my life, I wouldn’t like that. But others also want to live and don’t want to die; they want to be happy and recoil from pain. So if I were to take the life of someone else, they wouldn’t like that either. The thing that is disliked by me is also disliked by others. Since I dislike this thing, how can I inflict it on someone else?’ Reflecting in this way, they give up killing living creatures themselves. And they encourage others to give up killing living creatures, praising the giving up of killing living creatures. So their bodily behavior is purified in three points.

Of course, one could argue that this sense of sīla ethic is utilitarian, a la AN10.1:

"So, Ānanda, the purpose and benefit of skillful ethics is not having regrets. Joy is the purpose and benefit of not having regrets. Rapture is the purpose and benefit of joy. Tranquility is the purpose and benefit of rapture. Bliss is the purpose and benefit of tranquility. Immersion is the purpose and benefit of bliss. Truly knowing and seeing is the purpose and benefit of immersion. Disillusionment and dispassion is the purpose and benefit of truly knowing and seeing. Knowledge and vision of freedom is the purpose and benefit of disillusionment and dispassion. So, Ānanda, skillful ethics progressively lead up to the highest.”

But what is it about ethics that apparently doesn’t apply to Buddhist practice? Does it have to have a framework in which good actions don’t necessarily have good consequences and altruism means a sacrifice and suffering in general?

I think anyone arguing that Buddhism has no ethics, would soon find that no system can satisfy those arguments. It’s hyperbolic arguments.

I think the brilliance of Buddhist ethics is that if you’re sure of your behaviour, the results don’t matter too much. And if the results are so off the mark, you apologise, change your behaviour and move on.

It’s personally and communally utilitarian. And what else could be the purpose of ethics but the well being of individuals and communities?

I think people trying to divorce buddhism from morality is splitting hairs and getting into semantic polemics. Sure, morality is a tool, not a goal in itself; the point is peace, and perhaps indeed moving in a direction transcending the need to have a morality. But this state is not immoral, or even amoral - it’s beyond morality (as nibbāna is beyond such definitions) but there’s no way to achieve that without a firm basis in morality.

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Well I would say this:
1.5 C (which is now 2.0 C)
Massive disparities in food distribution
Pernicious downstream effects of white colonialism and racism
Bombs
AI potentially robbing people of their capacity for intelligence & being in relationship

:elephant: :pray:

The sutta’s also refer to conscience. This is an important part of the Path. We must have shame for doing wrong or have fear for that. It is very important to develop conscience and listen to that.

Buddhist ethics is also based upon conscience. Some sutta’s on conscience:
SN45.1
SN1.18
SN2.8

There are others.

Lack of conscience is a real problem.

There is, ofcourse, no nobility if one is also not an sincere, upright, moral person. Always concerned with others welbeing. Never aiming at harming, hurting etc.

I don’t understand this post. Do you mean Buddhism is incapable of addressing these issues?

These are precisely some of the personal and communal issues that Buddhism tackles: Endless discourses about dangers and pitfalls of greed re global warming & food dsitribution, endless praises for sharing food and resources, non-violence principles and justifications (both on a kammic and emphathic scale), and not falling in love with our mental prowesses as to consider AI a danger to things we’re addicted to, such as creativity, songs, arts & romantic relationships, which are generally unskillful behaviours to begin with; and also endless cautions for monarchs on how to rule justly regarding AI regulations and safety.

Also, I find the arguments that AI is robbing people of intelligence remarkably close to how people were against the invention of writing, precisely because they thought it’d dull our memorisation skills and make us less intelligent (Socrates wasn’t a big fan of writing). Seems like we’ve always been addicted to a certain way our minds function and we’ve always resisted any new technology that was capable of aiding us. We rather feel smart rather than being right, it seems. Ego, ego.

I don’t think abacuses are going to save the world. Neither do I fear that (occasionally) relying on abacus is going to dull my senses. And if I rather fondle abacus beads instead of real people, it only aids me in my pursuit to remove lust from my life, not getting entangled with “real” people and creating “real” suffering due to “real” relationships. Sure, we should neither fall in love with AI nor with people, but every step along the way is helpful.

Also, all of these are a demonstration of applied Buddhist ethics. :slight_smile: You might disagree with my points, but all of these issues can be tackled with Buddhist principles from a utilitarian ethical perspective that is conducive to enlightenment and achievement of cessation of kamma.

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Why not? The principles are always the same: throughout the whole Canon:

Gotamī, you might know that certain things lead to passion, not dispassion; to yoking, not to unyoking; to accumulation, not dispersal; to more desires, not fewer; to lack of contentment, not contentment; to crowding, not seclusion; to laziness, not energy; to being burdensome, not being unburdensome. Categorically, you should remember these things as not the teaching, not the training, and not the Teacher’s instructions.

You might know that certain things lead to dispassion, not passion; to unyoking, not to yoking; to dispersal, not accumulation; to fewer desires, not more; to contentment, not lack of contentment; to seclusion, not crowding; to energy, not laziness; to being unburdensome, not being burdensome. Categorically, you should remember these things as the teaching, the training, and the Teacher’s instructions.” (AN8.53)

So, if we would observe as Sangha that in our times social media lead to much passion, to being burdened, not to contentment, and it is to distracting and intoxicating…we could decide as Sangha to have a 6th rule not to be involved in social media.

Just as example.

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